Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#1 April 15th, 2020, 10:08 PM

Three Keys to Playing the Late Streets is half of your betting rounds. It is important to make great decisions when you get this far in a hand.

If you have not yet read Day 17 and watched the video for Day 17 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

Playing the Turn and the River

On the turn if you are in doubt then the rule of thumb is if you bet the flop then bet the turn. Collin and Katie discuss playing the late streets - we hope you learned some valuable things in this lesson.

Let's discuss playing the turn and the river - Collin and Katie will be joining this discussion.

Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#2 April 27th, 2020, 5:10 AM

This video strikes at the heart of a serious issue I've been having for several months....suck outs. A suck-out on the turn happens and can be accounted for but I've lost far too many showdowns by a single card suck-out on the river for these to be just bad luck. The only solution for this quandry/dilemma/issue/problem that I can fathom is that I need to increase my bet size dramatically at the river. Are there any other "throw the kitchen-sink methods" that I could use to bullet proof these losses? To balance things out, today during the CC ACR game I had an AX and runner,runner,runner, runner (K-Q-J-10..showed up) where there were four then three in the pot because of the increased bets. All I can say is that it was risky to keep paying into the pot knowing I was beaten all the way down this guantlet..but I was able to afford the bets! If the bets had been double in size I couldn't have reached that high straight but I think I was being herded into a pen to be slaughtered and instead the tables were turned. Suffice to say I was going bluff the river but would have lost..there a was low straight and I think two pair at showdown. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#3 May 6th, 2020, 7:09 PM

It seems I need to work a lot more on my turn play. I usually am very aggressive at the turn when I know I'm ahead only to get rivered. I have to re-think pot control and bluff-catching mode...

#4 May 6th, 2020, 7:21 PM

Originally Posted by Polytarp

This video strikes at the heart of a serious issue I've been having for several months....suck outs. A suck-out on the turn happens and can be accounted for but I've lost far too many showdowns by a single card suck-out on the river for these to be just bad luck. The only solution for this quandry/dilemma/issue/problem that I can fathom is that I need to increase my bet size dramatically at the river. Are there any other "throw the kitchen-sink methods" that I could use to bullet proof these losses? To balance things out, today during the CC ACR game I had an AX and runner,runner,runner, runner (K-Q-J-10..showed up) where there were four then three in the pot because of the increased bets. All I can say is that it was risky to keep paying into the pot knowing I was beaten all the way down this guantlet..but I was able to afford the bets! If the bets had been double in size I couldn't have reached that high straight but I think I was being herded into a pen to be slaughtered and instead the tables were turned. Suffice to say I was going bluff the river but would have lost..there a was low straight and I think two pair at showdown. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Running bad can be extraordinarily frustrating and I'm sorry to hear you have taken more than your share of bad beats lately. To answer your question, there's no way to bullet proof these loses, they are part of the game. As humans, we all tend to discount our good luck and see more of our bad luck, if that makes sense.

Personally when I reach a point where I feel like I'm running very bad I prefer to take a break from playing and focus on studying so that I can come back to the tables more confident and with a healthy view of the reality of variance Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#5 May 8th, 2020, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Polytarp

This video strikes at the heart of a serious issue I've been having for several months....suck outs. A suck-out on the turn happens and can be accounted for but I've lost far too many showdowns by a single card suck-out on the river for these to be just bad luck. The only solution for this quandry/dilemma/issue/problem that I can fathom is that I need to increase my bet size dramatically at the river. Are there any other "throw the kitchen-sink methods" that I could use to bullet proof these losses? To balance things out, today during the CC ACR game I had an AX and runner,runner,runner, runner (K-Q-J-10..showed up) where there were four then three in the pot because of the increased bets. All I can say is that it was risky to keep paying into the pot knowing I was beaten all the way down this guantlet..but I was able to afford the bets! If the bets had been double in size I couldn't have reached that high straight but I think I was being herded into a pen to be slaughtered and instead the tables were turned. Suffice to say I was going bluff the river but would have lost..there a was low straight and I think two pair at showdown. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Wow, sounds like you and me both! Just had a rant on Day 16 about a bad run lately, although it's not just rivers, but those too Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Sorry to hear about that, but must have felt good to turn the tables! Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

I know that the odd win where things have gone right for me lately have felt amazing.... for five seconds at least, till the next hand, hehe Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#6 May 8th, 2020, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

Personally when I reach a point where I feel like I'm running very bad I prefer to take a break from playing and focus on studying so that I can come back to the tables more confident and with a healthy view of the reality of variance Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Your perspective is on point in this response and in others. "Running bad/good" means that others must be experiencing the opposite (zero sum game approximation), entangled outcomes, regression and r^2 fit/rationale..etc..are some approaches to establishing and identifying the type of variance involved. You may have already done this kind of thing already but I'm approaching these poker scenarios for the first time more technically, is it possible to solve a poker game? It's a bit of a loaded question and goes to the point of preventing certain "suck-outs" from happening.
Like being one's own doctor, a proper diagnosis and application of the cure will usually fix things..if a cure is available. I'm no doctor but I do try to understand the problem and the right approach to resolve it...one problem at a time.. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#7 May 11th, 2020, 4:19 AM

Hi Guys and Ladies,

I also identify a lot with this topic because I lose a lot, a lot in turns.

I don't know if it's because I come with theoretically good hands and don't hit anything on the flop and the villain raises very high to protect the hand.

So in the next hand I go with everything else with a strong hand and decide: I go to the end, but beat even if it is a ridiculous pair for the villain enough to win the hand.

I think it is exactly at this point that I need to think more, maybe to know what to write down about the villain, I just know that playing too tight is not enough because I always have less chips than everyone (until my stack doesn't scare) and everyone calls, making that the combined odds devastate me from the game.

For what I have been thinking maybe, in addition to the notes being really expert on the statistics and cards that I must play (really know everything), all this combined with catch-bluff schools, in short, I don't know, it really is a very delicate point for me and maybe at the end of the course and with experience I can clarify something at this point.

Good Luck and lets movie foward Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#8 May 11th, 2020, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre1279

Hi Guys and Ladies,

I also identify a lot with this topic because I lose a lot, a lot in turns.

I don't know if it's because I come with theoretically good hands and don't hit anything on the flop and the villain raises very high to protect the hand.

So in the next hand I go with everything else with a strong hand and decide: I go to the end, but beat even if it is a ridiculous pair for the villain enough to win the hand.

I think it is exactly at this point that I need to think more, maybe to know what to write down about the villain, I just know that playing too tight is not enough because I always have less chips than everyone (until my stack doesn't scare) and everyone calls, making that the combined odds devastate me from the game.

For what I have been thinking maybe, in addition to the notes being really expert on the statistics and cards that I must play (really know everything), all this combined with catch-bluff schools, in short, I don't know, it really is a very delicate point for me and maybe at the end of the course and with experience I can clarify something at this point.

Good Luck and lets movie foward Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

The late streets are where you win and lose the most chips - hope you learned some good lessons in this course. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#9 May 12th, 2020, 5:19 PM

Love these rules. I do have a question. If we are at the river and see the busted draws and we check, with the decision to call the villain, and he bets some insane amount, do we just fold?

#10 May 12th, 2020, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by belizebum

I love these rules. I have a question. If we are on the river and see the defeated draws, and we check, with the decision to call the villain, and he bets some crazy amount, are we just dumping?

If we check, then yes, we fold

#11 May 12th, 2020, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by Andrey FRIFIN

If we check, then yes, we fold

Off subject slightly, why is my "quote" not my actual quote??? I mean it's close but not exact.

#12 May 12th, 2020, 7:05 PM

Originally Posted by belizebum

Love these rules. I do have a question. If we are at the river and see the busted draws and we check, with the decision to call the villain, and he bets some insane amount, do we just fold?

Yes, unless we have a strong read on villain and feel that the pot odds justify a call.

#13 May 13th, 2020, 2:01 PM

Finished Day #17.

A good rejuvenation for playing the last two streets of a poker hand. I agree with betting the turn with draw that have little to no showdown value. Proper playing of the last two streets will have a massive effect on a player's winrate. It applies to cash games too.

Tomorrow with Day #18.

#14 May 13th, 2020, 4:48 PM

I was missing value!

Okay, elaborating a bit more... I knew about betting when in doubt (turn or river in this context) and I've always value bet Rivers when I believed I had a better hand than my opponent. However, the River Bluff-Catching Rule was something I was missing out on. In these spots, where I put my opponent on a busted draw, I usually figured I was better and bet the river for value. The concept of checking the river to induce a bluff from missed draws is genius to me because I somehow overlooked this idea that seems so obvious to me now Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Thanks a lot for this piece of information. It is a simple adjustment that I am sure will get me more value in the long run Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#15 May 15th, 2020, 9:11 PM

I have always felt like too many checks take place on the turn after my c-bets on blank flops. Most persons now expect a c-bet from most poker players and often call post flop and bluff the turn if the aggressor gives up the betting lead. This is an area of my game that I need to look into.

Response to video question:

I would fire a semi-bluff there of half the pot and see what villain does. This is not only and excellent scare card but also a nut flush if we hit on the river. Then I plan to check raise the river if I hit.

At the mercy of the cards here. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#16 May 15th, 2020, 9:14 PM

Oops, I thought I saw an Ace of spades. My bad. (Rub my eyes). But still bet.

#17 May 21st, 2020, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by Phoenix Wright

I was missing value!

Okay, elaborating a bit more... I knew about betting when in doubt (turn or river in this context) and I've always value bet Rivers when I believed I had a better hand than my opponent. However, the River Bluff-Catching Rule was something I was missing out on. In these spots, where I put my opponent on a busted draw, I usually figured I was better and bet the river for value. The concept of checking the river to induce a bluff from missed draws is genius to me because I somehow overlooked this idea that seems so obvious to me now Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Thanks a lot for this piece of information. It is a simple adjustment that I am sure will get me more value in the long run Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Yes Phoenix, exactly -- it's a subtle idea but so valuable. Checking to let an aggro opponent bluff when there are a lot of busted draws can really pay off!

Originally Posted by redboy23

I have always felt like too many checks take place on the turn after my c-bets on blank flops. Most persons now expect a c-bet from most poker players and often call post flop and bluff the turn if the aggressor gives up the betting lead. This is an area of my game that I need to look into.

Response to video question:

I would fire a semi-bluff there of half the pot and see what villain does. This is not only and excellent scare card but also a nut flush if we hit on the river. Then I plan to check raise the river if I hit.

At the mercy of the cards here. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

That's a very good point Redboy on that turn dynamic and you can for sure use that to your advantage in different ways. Nice comments Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#18 May 21st, 2020, 9:24 PM

Turn and river are the finals of a poker hand. Especially the river is like the end of a thriller many times!

#19 May 24th, 2020, 5:29 PM

The problem with checking is that you have a decent draw. With two overcards and a gutshot straight draw, you have 10 outs to a likely-best hand. But if you check, you’re just going to have to fold facing a bet.
Betting gives you a chance to pick this pot up at the turn, and means you’ll at least get to see the river unless your opponent raises. What hands are we trying to get him to fold? Mainly ace-high. Plenty of hands like Ah8h and AcTc will call pre-flop and then call this flop, but are likely to fold to further aggression on the turn.
I dont agree with this statement in the ebook,this 7h is a total blank that only inpruve some backdoors(backdoor flush and backdoor strait draw) so a hand made like A9 or a middle pokect pair like 88 who are bloquing some off this draws will never fold here and we cant allwais count with our overcards becasue some off them can give our oponent a second pair that would make us bet againg river and louse a lot more, so when im on this spot i allwais count on the equity off my draw and that isnt enough to keep firing in this hand(but offcourse this is part off my strategy porflop and every one can make his onw strategy)
Also i dont think an Ah8h who float the flop with A high and backdoor flush will fold know that he hit the flushdraw,in fact some oponets will raise a lot here,so the 7h for our rangue is bad(only impruve backdoors and some doubles and sets) and for our current hand is even worse because he can have the flushdraw and we can face a raise turn.

#20 May 31st, 2020, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by freddydr87

The problem with checking is that you have a decent draw. With two overcards and a gutshot straight draw, you have 10 outs to a likely-best hand. But if you check, you�re just going to have to fold facing a bet.
Betting gives you a chance to pick this pot up at the turn, and means you�ll at least get to see the river unless your opponent raises. What hands are we trying to get him to fold? Mainly ace-high. Plenty of hands like Ah8h and AcTc will call pre-flop and then call this flop, but are likely to fold to further aggression on the turn.
I dont agree with this statement in the ebook,this 7h is a total blank that only inpruve some backdoors(backdoor flush and backdoor strait draw) so a hand made like A9 or a middle pokect pair like 88 who are bloquing some off this draws will never fold here and we cant allwais count with our overcards becasue some off them can give our oponent a second pair that would make us bet againg river and louse a lot more, so when im on this spot i allwais count on the equity off my draw and that isnt enough to keep firing in this hand(but offcourse this is part off my strategy porflop and every one can make his onw strategy)
Also i dont think an Ah8h who float the flop with A high and backdoor flush will fold know that he hit the flushdraw,in fact some oponets will raise a lot here,so the 7h for our rangue is bad(only impruve backdoors and some doubles and sets) and for our current hand is even worse because he can have the flushdraw and we can face a raise turn.

Interesting - let's see what Collin thinks about your views on this situation.

#21 June 1st, 2020, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by freddydr87

The problem with checking is that you have a decent draw. With two overcards and a gutshot straight draw, you have 10 outs to a likely-best hand. But if you check, you�re just going to have to fold facing a bet.
Betting gives you a chance to pick this pot up at the turn, and means you�ll at least get to see the river unless your opponent raises. What hands are we trying to get him to fold? Mainly ace-high. Plenty of hands like Ah8h and AcTc will call pre-flop and then call this flop, but are likely to fold to further aggression on the turn.
I dont agree with this statement in the ebook,this 7h is a total blank that only inpruve some backdoors(backdoor flush and backdoor strait draw) so a hand made like A9 or a middle pokect pair like 88 who are bloquing some off this draws will never fold here and we cant allwais count with our overcards becasue some off them can give our oponent a second pair that would make us bet againg river and louse a lot more, so when im on this spot i allwais count on the equity off my draw and that isnt enough to keep firing in this hand(but offcourse this is part off my strategy porflop and every one can make his onw strategy)
Also i dont think an Ah8h who float the flop with A high and backdoor flush will fold know that he hit the flushdraw,in fact some oponets will raise a lot here,so the 7h for our rangue is bad(only impruve backdoors and some doubles and sets) and for our current hand is even worse because he can have the flushdraw and we can face a raise turn.

I definitely agree with your point Freddy that if our opponent has a hand as strong as A9, 88, or the nut flush draw, there's almost no chance they're folding. We shouldn't target those hands for sure. But he'll frequently be much weaker. What if instead he has AJ or KdQd here? In that case, your bet will usually succeed in getting a fold,

While it would be a mistake to bluff all the time here (or bluff ever against a total calling station!), this particular hand is a good one to fire against most opposition. You don't want to check-fold the draw; your hand has very little showdown value unimproved; and many better hands such as ace-high and king-high (that aren't now good draws) are likely to fold.

#22 June 13th, 2020, 6:22 PM

The topic is very useful, requiring skills development.
The rule of betting on the turn is very effective.
www.cardschat.com/replayer/724COflhU
I liked the river betting rule: play aggressively on the river!
www.cardschat.com/replayer/724CO7RDH
The knowledge and ability to apply the rules of the game in the later streets greatly expands the possibilities of winning a hand.

#23 June 16th, 2020, 8:43 PM

Originally Posted by ronn6583

The topic is very useful, requiring skills development.
The rule of betting on the turn is very effective.
www.cardschat.com/replayer/724COflhU
I liked the river betting rule: play aggressively on the river!
www.cardschat.com/replayer/724CO7RDH
The knowledge and ability to apply the rules of the game in the later streets greatly expands the possibilities of winning a hand.

I would fold the 87o pre-flop, but otherwise these are nicely played hands that illustrate the turn and river concepts well. Good job!

#24 June 23rd, 2020, 8:46 AM

The two questions I've always seen asked on when and why to bet on early or late streets are:

1. What do they call with that's worse? (for value)
2. What do they fold that's better? (for a bluff)

I think you covered these two questions well in this chapter!

#25 June 23rd, 2020, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by johnnylawford

The two questions I've always seen asked on when and why to bet on early or late streets are:

1. What do they call with that's worse? (for value)
2. What do they fold that's better? (for a bluff)

I think you covered these two questions well in this chapter!

Great to hear, thanks! Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#26 June 24th, 2020, 8:55 PM

Another really helpful session which I enjoyed very much. I had not heard of the rule, if in doubt bet the turn, but it makes perfect sense, so thank you for identifying this really useful rule.

Thank you

BB

#27 July 12th, 2020, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by BentleyBoy

Another really helpful session which I enjoyed very much. I had not heard of the rule, if in doubt bet the turn, but it makes perfect sense, so thank you for identifying this really useful rule.

Thank you

BB

I like that rule too!

#28 July 13th, 2020, 10:40 AM

The main thing is to learn how to control the bank! In the later streets you win and lose the most chips! And so I try to control the bank, because betting on the turn and river will help to keep the stack if you have a bad hand or to pick up if you are ahead! There is also an opportunity to bet on turn or river win a pot of bluffs!

#29 July 27th, 2020, 12:40 PM

All three rules are great. When I started to follow these rules, I started winning a lot of small pots and losing more often, but winning huge pots even more often. After this lesson, it seemed to me that my understanding of opponents became better. Thanks to Collin and Katie.

#30 October 17th, 2020, 9:15 PM

So so I need to work on the turn and river game. It is on these streets that I am sometimes passive. This needs to be fixed.
On the turn and the river, the following situations are possible:

1. I clearly have a weak hand.
2.I Have a very strong hand.
3.I Have a borderline hand.
The first situation is the opposite of the second. If I have a weak hand, I must try to get out of the game in order to avoid further losses, then with a strong hand, I must draw in such a way as to provoke my opponents to put as much money in the pot as possible.
In the third situation I have a borderline hand: I have a strong enough card, but I can't be sure what the strongest one is. my task is to determine where I am at the moment with minimal expenses.
If the first situation is clear enough, then the second and third create certain problems for the player.

Life is a game , play beautiful

#31 November 12th, 2020, 8:55 PM

"When in doubt, if you�ve bet the flop, then bet the turn".
Betting on the turn is easy if you have bet on Preflop and Flop, as CB the river is more difficult if I am not sure of winning, many hands escape on the river, especially with calling station

#32 November 15th, 2020, 6:15 PM

The keys are: aggressive, aggressive, fake passive and then go aggressive again.

Since the beginning of this course, one of the thinks that really improved my game is being more and more aggressive.
One of the mainly results for me is that I don't end up some bad streets by letting some rags player steal my good hands by giving them a lot of free or cheap cards.

#33 November 15th, 2020, 6:55 PM

Well. the turn and river are my weakest point. How can I understand that my opponent is bluffing if I don't use any software and play from my phone? And I love to play zoom and fast poker. Very often I lose on the river when all in. Any advice on how to lose less on the river? Should I fold if I don't have the nuts, if my opponent is all-in?

#34 November 16th, 2020, 4:51 AM

Originally Posted by Pichman189

Well. the turn and river are my weakest point. How can I understand that my opponent is bluffing if I don't use any software and play from my phone? And I love to play zoom and fast poker. Very often I lose on the river when all in. Any advice on how to lose less on the river? Should I fold if I don't have the nuts, if my opponent is all-in?

It can be tough, particularly when playing on your phone, but try to make sure you�re watching the action as much as possible�even when you�re no longer in a hand. That will make it much easier to have accurate ideas of how your opponents are playing, which will be crucial in terms of being able to range them well.

Hope this helps! Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#35 November 18th, 2020, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

It can be tough, particularly when playing on your phone, but try to make sure you�re watching the action as much as possible�even when you�re no longer in a hand. That will make it much easier to have accurate ideas of how your opponents are playing, which will be crucial in terms of being able to range them well.

Hope this helps! Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Yes, observation in poker is very important, I noticed that. you need to be very careful about your opponents and try to read the range of hands. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but I will try !!)

#36 November 18th, 2020, 1:05 AM

Originally Posted by Pichman189

Yes, observation in poker is very important, I noticed that. you need to be very careful about your opponents and try to read the range of hands. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but I will try !!)

Have you noticed a correlation between playing ranges and the stakes of the game? I've noticed small stakes people are far less willing to give you credit for your range. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#37 November 18th, 2020, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by RimworldDoctor

Have you noticed a correlation between playing ranges and the stakes of the game? I've noticed small stakes people are far less willing to give you credit for your range. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

Yes, I noticed a correlation between the rates and the range of the opponent's hand. The better the hand, the more he bets. But there is one thing: this is the concept of bluffing in poker and if you are a tight player or rock, you will most likely fold all hands except the nuts if they bet a lot. Thus, you will give the pot before the opening without knowing if they had something. I'm sure you have to be a very good psychologist in poker. Naturally, it's easier in live tournaments, but we're talking about online poker right now. And we just have to watch the bets and guess the range of hands and whether the opponent is bluffing or not. Yesterday I had 15 difficult calls on the river: I won 8 and lost 7. This proves once again that river bluffs> 50% of opponents are used. These are purely my practical observations. And I will be very happy if someone tells about this in more detail from their personal experience. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#38 November 18th, 2020, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by RimworldDoctor

Have you noticed a correlation between playing ranges and the stakes of the game? I've noticed small stakes people are far less willing to give you credit for your range. Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

I agree that at lower-stakes, more players will focus on their own hand instead of your range. That is a nice aspect about freeroll and micro-stakes games Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

#39 December 30th, 2020, 6:25 PM

I think Collin is right, you won't be playing as many late streets as you do in the pre-flop and flop, but once you get there, you gotta have a good play because it will be very expensive to play wrong at these spots.

#40 January 4th, 2021, 12:18 PM

Hi Collin,
I have few questions about Turn play.

1. In the course you said that we should bet the turn when the scary card hits, for example Ace.
But how scary it really is for Villain when we check back flop with many A highs because they have SDvalue ? Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

2. How in game you choose if the turn card is still good for bet for value ?

3. How you pick your turn sizing ? Do you use just one sizing for specific turn ? Or you use more sizings with different hands ?

For example:
We open to 2.5bb LJ 50bb, BB unknown player calls.
Flop (6bb) we CBet 3bb,
Turn (12bb) 45bb Stack.

4. Bet or check, what sizing ? (on 9s and blank 2d)

Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

-

a) TT
b) KdQd
c) Th8h
d) Ks7s

5. Bet or check, what sizing ? (on 7d and blank 2s)
Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

-

a) AsQc
b) 99
c) Td8d
d) KsKd

#41 January 4th, 2021, 1:21 PM

Nice questions P1!

1. Sometimes "scare cards" won't be scary -- particularly to good hand reads who know they don't connect well with our range. So this is just a good general guideline and you're absolutely right that their are exceptions Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

2. Based on whether we think our hand is good enough that if we bet and our opponent calls, we're still likely getting action from more worse hands than better hands.

3. Bigger sizing if coordinated can serve well just like the flop. If you're unsure, then go with 1/2 pot which tends to be a nice default.

For the quiz-type questions at the end of your post, let me take a couple of these as examples. With TT as a set, I'd check with 4 to a straight on board and bet around 70% of pot on the blank turn. With Td8d I'd bet both turn cards against most opponents, and size down slightly to around 1/2 pot given this slightly drier board.

Hope that helps!

#42 January 4th, 2021, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

Good questions Q1!

1. Sometimes "scare cards" are not scary, especially for high-handed readers who know they don't connect well with our range. So this is just a good general guideline and you are absolutely right that there are exceptions Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

2. Depending on whether we think our hand is good enough that if we bet and our opponent calls, we are likely to still get hand action. more worse. what better hands.

3. A larger size if coordinated can serve well as the flop. If you're unsure, choose 1/2 pot, which is usually a good default value.

For the quiz type questions at the end of your post, let me take a couple of these as examples.With TT as a set, he would check with 4 to a straight on the table and bet about 70% of the pot on the blank turn. With Rd8d I would bet both cards on the turn against most of the opponents, and reduce the size slightly to around 1/2 pot given this slightly drier board.

I hope it helps you!

I think what the master says is true, we must take into account the card that comes out on the turn and on the river, in order to bet by value, this depends on the combinations that came on the flop, I think it's fine Let him say half pot, okay, we must learn to handle this type of situation and by obtaining good information from the villain, we can win pots without having to finish the hand.

#43 January 4th, 2021, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

For the quiz-type questions at the end of your post, let me take a couple of these as examples. With TT as a set, I'd check with 4 to a straight on board and bet around 70% of pot on the blank turn. With Td8d I'd bet both turn cards against most opponents, and size down slightly to around 1/2 pot given this slightly drier board.

Hope that helps!

So on that JT8-9sss turn you will use just one sizing like 70%? And bet with Qx/Flush ?
What about if Villain called turn and river paired the board ? We won't have any full houses so we would bet river with flushes only ? (and can't call vs XR Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

).

And flop Q93dd.
On 8d you will still use ~50% ? Or you will go up because it's more coordinated (JT hits, FD hits) than 7d ?

Shouldn't we use smaller sizing on the turn when obvious draws (like FD/OESD) hits ? Like we dont need to bet bigger for protection anymore but we also dont wanna give a free cards ?

#44 January 4th, 2021, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by P1R35

So on that JT8-9sss turn you will use just one sizing like 70%? And bet with Qx/Flush ?
What about if Villain called turn and river paired the board ? We won't have any full houses so we would bet river with flushes only ? (and can't call vs XR Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

).

And flop Q93dd.
On 8d you will still use ~50% ? Or you will go up because it's more coordinated (JT hits, FD hits) than 7d ?

Shouldn't we use smaller sizing on the turn when obvious draws (like FD/OESD) hits ? Like we dont need to bet bigger for protection anymore but we also dont wanna give a free cards ?

Just one sizing on JT89sss against most players, possibly vary some (generally being more literal) against unobservant opponents. If the river paired we wouldn't have many full houses in our range, but that doesn't mean we would always have to bet/fold. Against a good player, we could either bet some 2-pair/set combos at the turn or use game theory to decide on a calling range vs check-raise based on how high up we are in our range and his sizing.

On other board, I would go with larger sizing on 8d compared to a blank.

And that depends re the last question, I wouldn't normally use smaller sizing when the obvious draw hits because we still benefit from protection if a flush draw flops and comes in at the turn (a lot of hands will have one card of the suit). But if let's say the flop is Q J T and the turn is a 9, then it can make sense to decrease sizing because there's a lot less to protect from at that point.

#45 January 4th, 2021, 6:32 PM

OK

Two more things, I promise Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

What worse hand would you bet for value with 70% on
Q93dd, 8d ?
KQ? AQ? With or without a diamond ?

Let�s do other board.
AT2r, What CB size would you make here ? 1/3? 1/2?
Turn Ks (back door flush draw).
What sizing would you pick ? Flop was kind of dry, turn is wetter so 50%? Or more ?

#46 January 8th, 2021, 2:10 AM

Hi Guys, I have a question concerning calling on the river to catch bluffs. Is the size of the bet a factor we take into consideration here? or are we solely concerned with the fact that there are busted draws on the board when we have showdown value? For example, if we're facing a bet sizing that doesn't give us great pot odds, does that change anything?

#47 January 8th, 2021, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by EnigmaTTO

Hi Guys, I have a question concerning calling on the river to catch bluffs. Is the size of the bet a factor we take into consideration here? or are we solely concerned with the fact that there are busted draws on the board when we have showdown value? For example, if we're facing a bet sizing that doesn't give us great pot odds, does that change anything?

Great question. Yes, the size of the bet does impact our decision here.

Specifically: We should be more inclined to call smaller bets that are offering us better odds. The reason is that we can be wrong a lot more often and still profit because of the good odds.

#48 January 8th, 2021, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by P1R35

OK

Two more things, I promise Playing the Turn and the River (Day 17 Course Discussion)

What worse hand would you bet for value with 70% on
Q93dd, 8d ?
KQ? AQ? With or without a diamond ?

Let�s do other board.
AT2r, What CB size would you make here ? 1/3? 1/2?
Turn Ks (back door flush draw).
What sizing would you pick ? Flop was kind of dry, turn is wetter so 50%? Or more ?

No problem!

First question: It depends on who our opponent is, positions, and pre-flop action. For example, heads-up (as in only two dealt into the hand) against a loose- passive player, any queen including Q2o would usually be plenty good enough to keep on firing. Whereas you would want a much stronger hand in other situations.

Without any other info though, a hand like AQ might be around the bottom of our value-betting range. Having a diamond is somewhat neutral to this decision since it makes our hand stronger but means we need less protection.

On an AT2r flop, I would c-bet around 50% pot as my sizing. With a turn K putting up flush draw too, I might increase to around 60% pot.

#49 January 8th, 2021, 1:42 PM

Let me add, P1, that I wouldn't worry too much about getting things exactly right. Different players would have different recommendations I'm sure, and you really just want to think about what you're accomplishing and the best way to do it.

If your goal is to beat the highest stakes, that might require work on GTO play and using solvers.

If your goal is to crush at reasonable stakes, a lot is just thinking about how your opponents will react and what you're trying to accomplish. On AT2 K, what's his range? Will he call a huge bet when you have the nuts? Would a small sizing work to get him to fold T9 type hands?

Feel free to keep asking questions, I just don't want you to feel pressured to have exact answers. You clearly think about the game very well!

#50 January 10th, 2021, 12:08 PM

I was thinking about reasonable stakes.

I just wanna know a reason / factors that determine what sizing to choose on the turn.

But I guess I should just thinking what my hand wanna achieve and this should be my first thought.

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