Playing the Small Blind (Day 19 Course Discussion)

Originally Posted by Polytarp

A very clear presentation where some of the guidance provided can be tested very quickly.

In the Poker Stars $2.75 games, if I have the smallest stack and in the small blind, should I play differently if the prize is $5.50 or if the prize is a $109 ticket? Of the three opportunities I had I only won once..and they were not easy games.

Originally Posted by NWPatriot

Thanks Collin/Katie.

The SB can be tricky, and you have done a good job clarifying some of the idiosyncrasies of SB play.

I do have a question that probably should have been asked earlier in the course, but now seems a good a time as any other. I am getting a little confused about what you consider "showdown value" and there appears to be some inconsistancy around applying the term. I will try to be clear here, and maybe you can provide some clarification that will help me (and others i hope).

• In general I have not really considered high cards as having "showdown value" because I think a high card will only win at showdown ~5% of the time against a single player. In a multi-way pot it will probably never win. This means that my interpretation of "showdown value" requires a pair or better (pair+).
• In general, many of the recommendations in the course are:
  • Bet with "no showdown" value - keep the pressure on as it is our only way to win.
  • Check with "showdown" value - we have a chance to win without investing
  • Bet with the best hand - get value when our hand is likely best (yet this means now we are betting with "showdown" value.

Is this perception of what you are teaching accurate or am i missing it? If so, there are multiple versions of showdown value (high card only, mediocre pair+, strong hands of 2 pr+). How do you differentiate the two options of checking with showdown value or betting the best hand?

I hope this was clear and made sense. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Debi

I was so excited to see this Playing the Small Blind lesson! It is such a tough position to play from.

If you have not yet read Day 19 and watched the video for Day 19 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

Playing the Small Blind

I have probably been folding too wide from the small blind. I love it when both Collin and Katie are in the videos - they are great together! Let's talk about playing the small blind and ask Katie and Collin some questions about it.

Originally Posted by CadoARAJ

First of all, I want to congrat Katie and Collin for the excelent course so far. Very great lessons so far at day 19. Collin has a voice of college professor and it is very understandeble, including for foreign players that do not have english as its native language.
I would sugest to Katie, at eventual other following videos, to speak a little more slow, to allow better understanding for not english native listeners. Her voice is great, but she has a high intensity at her speech, I think she is hiperative and very inteligent very over the normal people that can put us in a brainstorm. Just a positive sugestion. Please desconsider if no one had the same dificulty.

My question to Katie and Collin is how they act at the BB facing a SB shoving very close the MTT/SNG bubble blows. They act normal following the Nash chart or, at this point, when we are medium stack and a loosing big pot can risk our ITM - ask.
Tks for the support and for this excelent free course oportunirty.

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

So glad to hear that you’re enjoying the course and thanks for your suggestion which I’ll take into account on any future videos I make

In situation you describe, I will follow Nash (taking ICM into account of course), but I will play explotively when the situation calls for it. If I feel the SB is shoving a lot narrower than they should, I will call a bit tighter. Very few people actually shove wider than they should in the small blind, but if I fee the player in the SB is doing this then I will also widen my calling range.

Kudos to you for doing this course in a language different from your native one, that is very impressive!

Originally Posted by NWPatriot

Thanks Collin/Katie.

The SB can be tricky, and you have done a good job clarifying some of the idiosyncrasies of SB play.

I do have a question that probably should have been asked earlier in the course, but now seems a good a time as any other. I am getting a little confused about what you consider "showdown value" and there appears to be some inconsistancy around applying the term. I will try to be clear here, and maybe you can provide some clarification that will help me (and others i hope).

• In general I have not really considered high cards as having "showdown value" because I think a high card will only win at showdown ~5% of the time against a single player. In a multi-way pot it will probably never win. This means that my interpretation of "showdown value" requires a pair or better (pair+).
• In general, many of the recommendations in the course are:
  • Bet with "no showdown" value - keep the pressure on as it is our only way to win.
  • Check with "showdown" value - we have a chance to win without investing
  • Bet with the best hand - get value when our hand is likely best (yet this means now we are betting with "showdown" value.

Is this perception of what you are teaching accurate or am i missing it? If so, there are multiple versions of showdown value (high card only, mediocre pair+, strong hands of 2 pr+). How do you differentiate the two options of checking with showdown value or betting the best hand?

I hope this was clear and made sense. Thanks.

Originally Posted by cferdi

I completely understand your question as I have also struggled with it. I am beginning to think that:

a) if you truly believe you have the best hand, then you bet for value (i.e., you have a set, for example).
b) showdown value (I think) means that you 'probably' have the best hand, but are not sure/could be wrong, but the hand is good enough to be seen at showdown (you have K high on a board that no one has shown much interest in and feel that your opponent has probably missed the board or has a lower high card and you feel like you might have the best hand - or you have hit a low pair in similar circumstances)

Of course, someone will correct me, hopefully, if I am wrong - as I am also struggling a little with this concept.

Today's lesson though, was Terrific! I rarely see much about how to deal with the blinds, so I found it refreshing to have the topic explained - thank you!

Originally Posted by jeanpierre1279

Good chapter of studies and the tips surprised me because in other faster articles from other sites it is always said that both the big blind and the small blind have to be protected and played because chips are necessarily lost and would only cost to complete them for the action.

But in practice I always thought that something was wrong because it is not only the cost of completing the chips but the "getting involved with the hand", with raises and checks, because the player will not fold any play.

So, seeing that we are really at a disadvantage post-flop when we are raised early, we should play tight.

When we play against bottoms and big blinds we increase the range, like as a spin and go game.

Good Luck and lets movie foward

Originally Posted by Phoenix Wright

Another worthwhile lesson learned here; playing the SB is a unique position that surely required its own day for this course.

Originally Posted by Glaucopone

In the minute 12:23 seconds in the example of the hand Qc6s hits the flop Kc9c9s, there was a check call, 6s on the turn also check call and the river hits Qs, perfect ... but how do you know if the villain doesn't have K or 9? And if the villain bet on the Flop, bet on the Turn, on the online, what is the sign that he does not have the K or 9 and continue to pay as was given in the example?

Originally Posted by shanest

I tend to limp in with my whole range. Has really worked well for me. It is such an important position to get right

Originally Posted by johnnylawford

How do you feel about all-in ranges from the small blind? It seems like when you're playing a short stack game you should have a particularly wide all-in range when you're under 15bb. This is particularly important in combination with the ICM section if you can apply pressure on a shorter stack close to the bubble.

Originally Posted by BentleyBoy

Hi guys. A great video and I love Katie’s imagery about how to remember which hands to play in SB. Pretty hands. Now that I can easily remember and also have the image of the hands in my head so will see how we go from here.

The hand Example of 22 in the SB coming up against 99 when all in is a really good example of how just because you do the correct move doesn’t always mean you will win, but emphasises how important the correct play is.

Thanks guys.

BB

Originally Posted by BentleyBoy

Hi guys. A great video and I love Katie’s imagery about how to remember which hands to play in SB. Pretty hands. Now that I can easily remember and also have the image of the hands in my head so will see how we go from here.

The hand Example of 22 in the SB coming up against 99 when all in is a really good example of how just because you do the correct move doesn’t always mean you will win, but emphasises how important the correct play is.

Thanks guys.

BB

Originally Posted by lollipopas

What would be a range for calling if BB raises after SB limps (blind versus blind)? And alternatively for 4betting/shoving?

Re: post flop play and bluffing in favorable multiway pots - what would be a good place to bluff? Low cards rainbow flop?

Originally Posted by Lugubrious

that's where I make the most money. I'm going to give you a trick that I use because if you've made it this far you deserve to get secrets that no one else is willing to reveal. From the Sb blind you should flat alot against LP openers and lead flop I guarantee you will be thanking me in the future now let's continue to crush

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

For post-flop, do you mean if you're the small blind and have called a big blind raise pre-flop? If so, I would usually be checking most of my range at the flop. But generally dry flops are great for bluffing post-flop if you have the betting lead.

Originally Posted by lollipopas

I meant, from the video, there was a point about bluffing post flop in multiway pots with favorable boards. I assume the situation is if several people limped in (or say there was a raise and calls and SB filled in because the pot odds were good?). So then good flop to bluff for SB would be something with no high cards, rainbow?

Originally Posted by lollipopas

I meant, from the video, there was a point about bluffing post flop in multiway pots with favorable boards. I assume the situation is if several people limped in (or say there was a raise and calls and SB filled in because the pot odds were good?). So then good flop to bluff for SB would be something with no high cards, rainbow?

Originally Posted by nwhitney118

Hi guys, really helpful lesson given the small blind is arguably the trickiest position to play out of. One thing that wasn't mentioned was 3 betting with speculative hands such as weaker Axs and suited connectors. I've seen quite a few people advocate for playing them this way in the small blind, but after doing so in SnGs I feel like it's a bit of a chip burner especially in the mid stages with stack sizes getting to the 25-40bb range. Is it better to flat and then use the chips not used pre flop to semibluff a draw if it comes on the flop?

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

I think the best course is discard hands that have poor reverse implied odds based on the action (weaker aces as a common example) as well as hands that don’t have good enough implied odds (such as weaker suited connectors with an effective stack of around 30 bbs).

Originally Posted by Phyrrura

The more I play, more I accept the power of limping in the right spot, and Katie and Collin just gave an excellent example of strong plays you can do by limping.
Thank you for this course CC!

Originally Posted by PsychoVas

Originally Posted by monkey23

if it is folded to you in the small blind, and you have a healthy stack....and the bb isnt a maniac...you should generally raise wide.
any suited connectors...anf connectors over 78...any ace...any sooted 2 gappers over 58...K7+...Q8+...any 2 broadway cards of course...

its a great spot to balance your ranges too...make unusual plays.

if it is bet you you in the sb...thats a different ball game...pot odds...implied odds...how many in the multi way pot..does the button bet into you every time..??

suited connectors and small pocket pairs should not be over valued,,,set mining can be cool...depending on the expense...

suited connectors play best in late positions...certainly not the sb.

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

I agree that you should play a wide range in the small blind in unraised pots, but consider limping a lot of these hands instead of raising unless the big blind is tight-passive.

When there's a previous raise, you're right that it's very different and you should tighten up quite a bit relative to the unraised situation. For example, if the button raises and you have 65s, I would usually just be folding. But if it were folded to us, we would almost always play that hand.

If you want to look at any specific small blind hands/situations, feel free to post them here.

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

I agree that you should play a wide range in the small blind in unraised pots, but consider limping a lot of these hands instead of raising unless the big blind is tight-passive.
.