Play differences in SnG and ring?

Hey i'm mostly a SnG player and recently have been trying to adjust to playing some ring games also. I'm a TAG SnG player and seem to be pretty successful at them so far, but can't seem to completely grasp cash games. I know the two types need to be played with different sets of tools, and i know it probably cant all be written in one post, but what are some of the KEY adjustments i need to make when going from a SnG to a cash game? (for micro stakes)

In ring game you dont have to worry about your stack, you just play the hand. In SnGs stack is important. In cash games you can play looser if you want or sometimes call bets with draws that you wouldn't call in SnG while being a shortstack. But in micro people call even 10BB raise with rag ace, any two suited cards whatever, many of them are just crazy. So at first you should find your rythm and try out yourself.

Like you stated in your original post this is a really complex answer.

A big mistake that I made during my transition was overvaluing TpTk, which usually worked out well in tournaments or STT's.

Post-flop play is also more involved since you will usually have consistently larger stack sizes (typically 100bb's) in comparison to the blinds and won't be pushing all-in w/ any two cards because of time constraints. This also makes understanding the concept of pot control more important.

Pick up a book like Theory of Poker or NLHE Theory and Practice for a good insight into the game.

This guy is a regular here (Belgo) and made this switch. Although the below article doesn't go into great detail about every aspect of ring vs stt, it does serve as a good guide and story to broader differences and making the transition.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-goals-challenges-wins-46/

I had (and sometimes have) trouble making the transition from SNG to the ring games as well. One thing I look for before I sit at a table is the other stack sizes. I usually like to sit down with $2 or $4 at a $10 max table(many folks will recommend never sitting down with less than table max).
If there's one person with significantly more than that (> $10), then I'll watch a bit to see if they are going all-in a lot to steal the blinds. I'll usually look for a table that has similar stack sizes to what I will have, but where the average pot size is relatively large (>$1) - to me this indicates that folks are generally reasonable but not unwilling to commit some chips to the pot, so I can make a good hand pay.

As the previous poster noted, chill until you get a read on the table. If you come in both barrels blasting, you'll get called just about every hand and stand to be outdrawn (or be behind to begin with).

thanks guys, all really good info...one of the things im seeing is that the most common and seem to be very profittable hands are pretty much any pocket pair. It seems people love to limp with the low pairs and raise with the high ones to see if they catch an overpair or hit their set...This seems to be one of the differences as the low pocket pairs were not as important in SnGs with the lower stacks...feedback on this?

DKnight10 said:

thanks guys, all really good info...one of the things im seeing is that the most common and seem to be very profittable hands are pretty much any pocket pair. It seems people love to limp with the low pairs and raise with the high ones to see if they catch an overpair or hit their set...This seems to be one of the differences as the low pocket pairs were not as important in SnGs with the lower stacks...feedback on this?

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In cash games you are normally playing with deeper stacks as I mentioned, therefore bigger implied odds on hands like small pocket pairs and smaller suited connectors, ie 67s. Implied odds are basically account for the amount of money you COULD win in the future if you do hit your hand, straight, flush, set....

In the case of smaller pocket pairs your odds of hitting a set are something like 7:1 (not sure if that's the exact number). Most often you are not getting those odds before the flop, but the implied odds make it profitable to call. This is because your implied odds more than make up for it when you hit your set and take a person's entire stack who hit a TpTk type hand.

For example the bet is $10 to you and the pot is $30. You have 22, and are getting 3:1 odds. You are not getting the correct effective odds, but implied odds say you would have to win $40 dollars in the future to make this break-even. Most likely when you hit your set of 22's over the long run you will more than make up for that difference, and show a profit, even though you did not have the effective odds too call preflop.

Hope that made some sense.

build your roll in SNG's til you have enough where a) you can sit with table max and b) stay within BR management

alright, i didnt know the importance of using the table max,

so lets say i play at the 1c/2c blinds (lowest level) and the table max is $5 how big should my BR be to be comfortable?

DKnight10 said:

alright, i didnt know the importance of using the table max,

so lets say i play at the 1c/2c blinds (lowest level) and the table max is $5 how big should my BR be to be comfortable?

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^^^ $100 minimum; 20 buy ins

Just for your guidance, the micro limits .01/.02 & .02/.05 allow players to buy in deep stack (usually regarded as greater that 100 bb's, ie $2 or $5 respectively). This will make for different dynamics when playing the tables without even mentioning the extremely wide variety of players you will encounter at these levels.

Try to stick to buying in for about 100 bb's and then re-buying back to that amount if you drop below. It will also serve you better in the future to get used to 100 bb buy in because it is the standard max for most online limits.

20 buy-ins is probably somewhere closer to a minimum number of buy-in's for a player just starting out in ring games, but you can only work with what you have.

One of the sticky's in the Learning Poker section of this forum (the section where you posted this) is about making a transition to a cash games, written by a notable member, Icemonkey. Take a look, that should guide you through more thoroughly.

you want to play more hands and you want to try to see lots of flops with potential big cashing hands. straight hands, pockets, and flushes. these hands have big payouts.

Personally, I feel sit-n-gos are more prone to the crime of collusion; therefore, I try to stay away from them like the plague.

j0sh1ngU said:

you want to play more hands and you want to try to see lots of flops with potential big cashing hands. straight hands, pockets, and flushes. these hands have big payouts.

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no

hurricanebezy said:

Personally, I feel sit-n-gos are more prone to the crime of collusion; therefore, I try to stay away from them like the plague.

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no

Likminutz said:

Just for your guidance, the micro limits .01/.02 & .02/.05 allow players to buy in deep stack (usually regarded as greater that 100 bb's, ie $2 or $5 respectively). This will make for different dynamics when playing the tables without even mentioning the extremely wide variety of players you will encounter at these levels.

Try to stick to buying in for about 100 bb's and then re-buying back to that amount if you drop below. It will also serve you better in the future to get used to 100 bb buy in because it is the standard max for most online limits.

20 buy-ins is probably somewhere closer to a minimum number of buy-in's for a player just starting out in ring games, but you can only work with what you have.

Click to expand...

Alright thats what i was confused about, i've been trying to go to the micro's with $2 and the max is $5 so it threw me off a little. So i have almost 20 buy ins at the micro, guess i'll just play SnG's to get a comfortable BR.

Also, whats the best way of going about getting knowledge, i assume that there aren't really any books aimed at the micro limits onw still has good knowledge for me to use at that level anyways...whats the best source that i can learn from? any suggestions?

Phil Gordon has a Little Green Book of Poker, which I have heard is a nice first book.

20 buy-ins is fine for 2NL. Really it just requires a lot of patience and only raising with top hands. SnG winning and losing swings can be much more brutal, but it is more important to feel comfortable when you sit down at a game.

is it better to play 6 max or full ring?

I've found that short stacking ring games works best for me. Usually buy in for the min., then u take away those tough decisions for 100 BB, and if u do push its not a substantial amount ur losing. I also see the pitfalls in this strategy such as not getting maximum value, but it seems to work for me. How does everyone feel about shortstacking?

I would NOT start out at 6max.

Play FR and play tight straight up ABC TAG poker for a while.

Shorthanded you will have to be more nimble, and ready to make slightly more gray area decisions. I think it's good to straight up nut peddle for players coming from SNG. This way you can start to get a feel for the ring play without spending a whole lot on speculative hands.

One thing I have seen at ULTRA low limit ring from tourney players is a propensity to "shove" a little too easily. The blinds aren't going up, so you don't have to gamble as much.

Discretion is the greater part of honor more often in cash games as it might be in a tournament.

Also realize that play at 02nl is not like a SNG or like 50nl. It is loose and filled with players that range from terrible to quite good.

Good luck!
cAPS

cAPSLOCK said:

Also realize that play at 02nl is not like a SNG or like 50nl. It is loose and filled with players that range from terrible to quite good.

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good 2nl players ????

if you're quite good at 2nl, you can easily beat if for 20BB/100 and you're vastly overrolled for it in no time.

Babynut said:

Hey,
I have my own thoughts as to why, but would like other thoughs on it as well.
Two hours after a live 1-2 NL csh game I am almost always up, but a similar game online I have to rebuy within an hour.
Am I playing too many hands online? Are the players calling with rags online and hitting their draws and Ax.
Since I play at the lower levels in casinos, I think I get tourists that wander up to play NL LIMIT holdem (as seen on TV) and are actually fish for me (there is always a bigger fish)
I love a live cash game. But not Online.

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I'm the exact same way--ppl seem to be looser online--idk if it is because they can't see the money in front of them, if it's psychological, or if ppl are just crazy online--but while there are plenty of donkey calls in live cash games, it seems to be more plentiful on online; ultimately resulting in more ppl getting cracked.

BelgoSuisse said:

good 2nl players ????

if you're quite good at 2nl, you can easily beat if for 20BB/100 and you're vastly overrolled for it in no time.

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Last I checked I beat it for 45bb/100 over 60k.

But it would be foolish to assume you won't run into good players at small stakes.

After all, I still play there from time to time.

Likminutz said:

Just for your guidance, the micro limits .01/.02 & .02/.05 allow players to buy in deep stack (usually regarded as greater that 100 bb's, ie $2 or $5 respectively). This will make for different dynamics when playing the tables without even mentioning the extremely wide variety of players you will encounter at these levels.

Try to stick to buying in for about 100 bb's and then re-buying back to that amount if you drop below. It will also serve you better in the future to get used to 100 bb buy in because it is the standard max for most online limits.

20 buy-ins is probably somewhere closer to a minimum number of buy-in's for a player just starting out in ring games, but you can only work with what you have.

Click to expand...

So using the 5% BR rule, I guess a minimum starting BR would be around $40 if playing .01/.02 and $100 if playing .02/.05. Does that sound about right?

Now I understand why not to play the 6max. A question about 9 or 10 tops... is there a % in flop number to look for when picking a table? I guess what I am asking is there such a thing as too many fish at a table? Last night I seemed to have one of "those runs" where someone would call to the river with small pockets and hit a two outter. It really seemed like I was taking chips from two of the bad players, only to hand it back (plus more) to the third a hand or two later... and it just kept rotating around... two of the other players, whom I considered good players, seemed to be cleaning up vs only one or two of these guys at a time... I seemed to get into hands with all three repeatedly.... so is there such a thing as too "fishy" or is this just a "tilt" impression on my part?