PFR too close to VPIP?

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Deceitful_Frank

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Hey guys just a quick question. I was playing on stars last night and got chatting with this guy. He asked me if I bought hands histories from PTR to use with PT3 or if I was familiar with the site. I was aware that there was a disgusting place where you could buy data on your apponants if you were to lazy to collect it yourself. I asked him if there was any info on me.

He told me yes and that I was 160% TOO aggressive pre-flop. well it turns out that Phil Ivey is some 30% too loose and really needs to tighten up his play! Need I adjust my preflop game to be less aggressive?

My numbers are in the region of 14.5/13.5 with a PFAF of 7.7, I play full handed microstakes. Is it not true that the closer those numbers are the better?

I have seen people talk about the ideal ratio being 4/3 or 3/2 but assumed that this was a maximum ratio of VPIP to PFR.

Also while I am here, I am currently taking a shot at 10NL and am thinking table and seat selection could help my egde a little. I already choose the loosest, slowest tables to try to increase the chance of meeting weaker players but I am guessing there is more to it than that?

Thanks in advance as ever! Frank
 
TPC

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Your VPIP and PFR is right were they should be. I've never looked at the PFAF number so I'm not sure what a good number is there. What you should be concerned with is what your BB/100 hands is. If it's at 5 or higher, don't change a thing. It's less than 3 it's still a positive win rate, but you probably have some leaks you can work on.

Basically if you have a win rate of 3 big bets per 100 hands, your stats don't matter that much, just play your game. If you dip below that or into a negative win rate, then you should go into your stats and start finding what your leaks are and patching them up.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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How are you playing implied odds hands (say, 22-77, smaller suited connectors, smaller suited one gappers) on the button multiway?

One rationale behind having a bigger gap between VPIP and PFR is that there are some situations/hands that, in position, benefit from calling pf rather than raising - a very small gap between VPIP and PFR means you're almost never entering the pot without open raising or 3betting - above is an example of such a situation where you might call rather than raise or fold. 3betting a very loose opener in position who folds 90% to a 3bet and cbets 90% can be a mistake, since you may make more money off of him postflop - another spot where flatting can be correct.

That said, having a large gap is bad, as you're aware.
 
NineLions

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Pretty much as sly says, there are times that it's better to call a raise, especially in position, rather than 3 bet or fold. That should be where the slightly larger gap should come from.

But 95% of people have the opposite problem; too wide of a gap, so don't worry about it too much.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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How are you playing implied odds hands (say, 22-77, smaller suited connectors, smaller suited one gappers) on the button multiway?

Thanks for your replies guys!

My general strategy for pairs from 22-66 is to raise them as I would K9s,T9s and A8s. With these hands I will raise if unopened 4 from the button, with 1 caller 3 from the button, 2 callers, 2 from the button... you get the idea. I have stopped open limping and always open with a raise with low pairs.

77-88 I play slightly looser as I believe they have slightly more options after the flop.

I must say that if I had a low pocket pair and was in late position with multiple callers I might well fold... purely because it would not be a safe raise, as it wouldnt be with K9s, T9s and A8s. There is obviously a flaw in my new pocket pair strategy though thankfully it should be easily fixed!

Its great when you start a thread about one thing and end up fixing a leak in another area of your game!

Connectors and gappers? I don't even play them... yet. I still have not figured out a strategy that I can get my head around being a long term winner. I know a lot of people limp with these hands hoping to get raised by a big stack for implied odds but I have recently come to realise that RAISING is the way to make money in poker. Since I stopped limping I feel I have much more control over the table and I am not just relying on the fall of the cards
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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As NL says, having too narrow a gap is much less of a problem than too wide, so think of this as something to think about over time - glad that the thread has been useful to think about!
 
LuckyChippy

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If you go to the cash game may thread there's some good discussion between me and FP about opening ranges, and calling ranges OTB. You should have a look. For example I've started calling OTB with hands like AQ and JJ/1010 rather than 3-betting against most opponents. You get yourself into profitable situations post-flop to make more money.

If you think about it, 3-betting AQ will result in either a fold or re-raise against most opponents. Fish will still call a lot, which is why I still do 3-bet it sometimes. Good (non-bad) opponents will fold KQ's and raise AK's. We want to play against KQ's post-flop and not get forced out by AK's.
 
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Lofwyr

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If you go to the cash game may thread there's some good discussion between me and FP about opening ranges, and calling ranges OTB. You should have a look. For example I've started calling OTB with hands like AQ and JJ/1010 rather than 3-betting against most opponents. You get yourself into profitable situations post-flop to make more money.

If you think about it, 3-betting AQ will result in either a fold or re-raise against most opponents. Fish will still call a lot, which is why I still do 3-bet it sometimes. Good (non-bad) opponents will fold KQ's and raise AK's. We want to play against KQ's post-flop and not get forced out by AK's.
This is pretty much the primary argument for having a reasonable gap between VPIP/PFR. Really, the size of that gap should be relative to your skills post-flop. If you're comfortable playing suited connectors and small PP's from position post-flop, you should be more comfortable flat-calling as opposed to 3-betting or open-raising a limped field.

Pot control is another thing to think about. You have to keep in mind which hands want to see big pots and which don't. 3-betting pretty clearly leads to bigger pots.

So if you're still in the process of learning and getting comfortable with things you should probably stick more closely to the raise/fold mindset and expand a bit as you improve.
 
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