outs vs pot odds

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johnny2shoes

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ok so say ive got two hearts and two hearts come on the flop and i reckon a flush will take the pot, i work out my out percent with two streets to come which is 4 x 9 =36% and im getting 3 to 1 pot odds =33% on the turn, turn comes and its a club, now say villian bets again and i get bad pot odds what do i do,? because if i dont call villans bet know my first calculation was wrong because i calculated it for 2 streets and am only using one. also ive read that you only calculate by 4 when villians all in on the turn, clarification please,:)
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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Some people say that you count for 1 street at a time unless you are getting all your money in on the flop then you can count for the turn and river.....also there are implied odds if you miss on the turn and haven't got the odds...although that depends on how likely you are to get paid off if you hit the flush and if effective stacks cover the impiled odds needed to make it a good call in the long run.....

See what other people say, I'm quite interested to find out more on this too, everyone had a different opinion it seems.....best just to play against the opponent and figure if you will get paid if you hit...if your opponent won't pay you off then implied odds are not very good and you would have to think more on immediate odds I think.
 
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johnny2shoes

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yes and also even if villans got got a big enough stack for implied odds he might not pay you off seeing youve hit your flush, so you cant realy implie , and that comes down to your read on villans play. am i thinking this rite or over thinking??. only been playing a month never knew poker was so complex.:dancing: :dancing:
 
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johnny2shoes

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sorry just thought of something else. so that means implied odds are not always the same they differ from villian to villian and on your read of that perticular villians play.........
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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yes and also even if villans got got a big enough stack for implied odds he might not pay you off seeing youve hit your flush, so you cant realy implie , and that comes down to your read on villans play. am i thinking this rite or over thinking??. only been playing a month never knew poker was so complex.:dancing: :dancing:

Yeah depends on your opponent and the actions upto that point...if he is a thinking player and puts flush draws in your range with the actions you've done and has reads on you then getting paid off when the flush draw hits is going to be harder than when your playing someone who only plays their 2 cards and doesn't think about anything else....so implied odds would work against fishy players...can also station aggro players who overvalue top pair hands.....

Very complex game man, if you've only been playing for a month I would just concentrate on learning position and starting hand requirements for each position....get the fundimentals down then add more to your game as you gain experience.....

But I suppose the point to your questions are 'it depends'.....every decision you make will need to have taken the player you are playing into account before you can work out the best play against them.....make sense?
 
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hffjd2000

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I believe your call on the turn is just right because the 33 and 36 percent is close, considering 2 cards to come. Now your problem is on the river call since you will not get proper pot odds. Many considerations here, one is implied odds. If you will be paid fully if you hit your draw, then call is profitable. Other consideration is ratio of stack. If it will not hurt you much since the stack is deep then why not call, but if the case is somewhat near the money(bubble time), then i would fold here.
 
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johnny2shoes

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,yes thanks for all that i think we more or less answerd my original question,i know ive got to get the basics down first and looking foward to the time in the future when im able to use that kinda stuff while im actully playing.thanx...
 
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hffjd2000

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@johnny2shoes, read about implied odds since it will superimpose pot odds.
Goodluck.
 
Arjonius

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sorry just thought of something else. so that means implied odds are not always the same they differ from villian to villian and on your read of that perticular villians play.........
Yes, implied odds includes factoring in the likelihood that the specific opponent on a given hand will pay you off if you hit your draw.

One other thing is that you don't seem to be considering the possibility that your outs may not be clean. For instance, if you're not drawing to the nut flush, or if the board is paired,
 
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johnny2shoes

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yeh thanx, i was really just trying to find out if you reavalluate on every single str....eet because when you work out your% on the turn and miss then dont call after the turn when youve times 4rd your outs is it a true value call because you havent used your streets that you took into account, people seem to have diffrent views. i did have a great hand last week though, was heads up and we all could tell this bloke had trips and me with a flush draw, anyways hes slow playing them i hit my flush draw on turn so i bet big he calls just in case im bluffing then river paired the board with another one of my flush suite, hes got full boat goes all in quick as a flash, me as useual cant fold my flush and im allin, you know whats coming now the chips come to me id got an unlikly looking stright flush,it was so funny 4 people put lol and it tickeld me for a good hour the way he slow played snaped called his full boat. he went out the game after that,the chips .didunt matter hope he saw the funny side when he calmed down
 
Arjonius

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It's a matter of taking into account the likelihood of further action. For instance, if you have a flush draw on the flop and know you're likely to face a turn bet, you shouldn't automatically assume you're going to see both the turn and the river.

So, you don't simply have 9 outs twice. You have them once plus implied odds based on hitting the turn plus a rather difficult to quantify combo of pot and implied odds based on sometimes seeing the river after missing the turn.
 
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