open limping v limping v raising

AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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right guys, what is the difference between open limping and limping?.....i hear that open limping is forbidden and must not be used......why is this?.....i often limp with suited acex and small pairs......and raise with premium hands.....or should i mix it up...thanks
 
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Big_Rudy

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Right, easy stuff first..... open-limping is when you are the first in the pot and you don't raise (open-raise), limping, by itself can sometimes mean this, too, but is generally referring to when one or more players have already limped-in before the action gets to you.

Basing your limping/raising when you are first to act upon the strength of your starting hand is generally pretty bad since it gives away the strength of your hand pre-flop if you always limp weak hands and raise strong ones. Plus, if you are EP and limp something like A-rag suited, you are giving people left to act good odds to flat. This is going to make it awkward for you to continue with the hand almost always.

If you flop the Ace, it's likely you're going to be out-kicked. If you flop your weak kicker, there are likely going to be overcards on the flop which may or may not put later players already ahead of you. Lastly, if you flop nothing, which you frequently will, players in LP who called your limp can represent to have hit just about any flop whther they actually did or not since you let them see the flop for cheap.

There are all kinds of variations on this, of course, and much more could be written, but it's generally standard to say that if you are the first to enter the pot, and your hand isn't strong enough to raise, you should probably just fold.

Limping after others have already limped, though, can be correct at times, given implied odds. Even then, though, you may want to consider an isolation raise pre-flop since you'll often either win the pot right there, or you'll play the rest of the hand in position v. the limp-caller.
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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thank you big rudy, great reply from you there mate and easy to understand....i wont be open limping again haha, everytime i get a big hand and raise, everybody folds...never get any action...now i know why its happening...need to mix up my play more....i suppose i will get the hang of it with more i play......thanks again man
 
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Machidon7

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sometimes ,for mixing up your game u can open limp big pocket pairs ( like AA KK QQ) from early position...this adds deception to your game and you can induce raises from weaker hands (hands that probably would have folded or just called your early pos raise) and you can reraise ,or just call preflop and raise on the flop,to build a big pot ;)
 
JCgrind

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sometimes ,for mixing up your game u can open limp big pocket pairs ( like AA KK QQ) from early position...this adds deception to your game and you can induce raises from weaker hands (hands that probably would have folded or just called your early pos raise) and you can reraise ,or just call preflop and raise on the flop,to build a big pot ;)

while this is true, its terrible advice for a microstakes player.

sub optimal plays are used for deception against people who know how to play.
 
Arjonius

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To add a bit to what Big Rudy said, when you open-limp, especially in EP, you also open yourself up to being iso-raised. And when that happens, you don't have any good options. If you call, you're playing a raised pot OOP with a mediocre hand. If you fold, you give up a BB unnecessarily. That may not seem like much, but compare it to your hourly win rate, plus if you open-limp one hand, it's likely you do others as well.
 
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Machidon7

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everytime i get a big hand and raise, everybody folds...never get any action...

my point was that he should sometimes open limp with AA KK QQ in early position because ppl expect him to raise with these hands and they will not put him on a strong hand and raise him with weaker hands ,that probably would have folded or just called his early pos raise...=> he will get action with his big hand
he may be a microstakes player but there is no reason why he should not get tricky once in a while especially if he observed that everyone folds to his early pos raises :)
 
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Big_Rudy

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sometimes ,for mixing up your game u can open limp big pocket pairs ( like AA KK QQ) from early position...this adds deception to your game and you can induce raises from weaker hands (hands that probably would have folded or just called your early pos raise) and you can reraise ,or just call preflop and raise on the flop,to build a big pot ;)

while this is true, its terrible advice for a microstakes player.

sub optimal plays are used for deception against people who know how to play.


Agree with Jchoop on this. While you CAN try to get tricky from time-to-time, most often this will not end well. Typically if you limp from EP you'll get not one, but several callers, all of whom will have position on you for the rest of the hand. The result is one of the limpers flops big and busts you big pair. After which there is generally ANOTHER "bad beat" story placed on here:eek: . Open-limping is generally going to be bad; pretty much always.
 
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Big_Rudy

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my point was that he should sometimes open limp with AA KK QQ in early position because ppl expect him to raise with these hands and they will not put him on a strong hand and raise him with weaker hands ,that probably would have folded or just called his early pos raise...=> he will get action with his big hand
he may be a microstakes player but there is no reason why he should not get tricky once in a while especially if he observed that everyone folds to his early pos raises :)

I see where you're going with this and, in theory, its not a bad plan from time to time. Reality, however, especially at the micros, is that there often won't be a raise behind him and so no chance for him to 3-bet pre and shove people out while collecting some extra money. His open-limp, in most micro games, is far more likely to attract several more limpers, rather than someone behind him trying to iso.
 
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BlueNowhere

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my point was that he should sometimes open limp with AA KK QQ in early position because ppl expect him to raise with these hands and they will not put him on a strong hand and raise him with weaker hands ,that probably would have folded or just called his early pos raise...=> he will get action with his big hand
he may be a microstakes player but there is no reason why he should not get tricky once in a while especially if he observed that everyone folds to his early pos raises :)

Lol at getting tricky V people who are so stupid they barely even realise you have cards. Your thought process on this matter is awful.
 
Arjonius

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It's one thing to open-limp a premium pair when you happen to be at a table where someone still to act is raising limpers virtually every chance he has, but another to do so without specific circumstances like this that factor into your thinking. The latter is just being tricky for the sake of being tricky, or perhaps to stroke one's own ego.
 
Debi

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OP - do you play tournaments or cash games?
 
Nathan Williams

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Try to never limp, tournament or cash poker. Having the initiave is so huge to success in this game. When I see someone limp it is just free money.
 
AlfieAA

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Try to never limp, tournament or cash poker. Having the initiave is so huge to success in this game. When I see someone limp it is just free money.

Yeah I'm not limping anymore, always raise 3bb now.....fold or raise is my thought process....what about limping if people have limped behind you?....and is your book available for download?....thanks
 
Nathan Williams

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Yeah I'm not limping anymore, always raise 3bb now.....fold or raise is my thought process....what about limping if people have limped behind you?....and is your book available for download?....thanks

I still normally just raise it up even if a bunch of people have limped in front of me. I think it is more profitable that just limping along. It is also good for your image. Maybe if I am in the blinds with a small pocket pair/suited ace rag type hand I will just complete or check just because of the difficulty of playing OOP. Although I don't have any specific numbers to back this up. Might be interesting to look at a big sample in HEM/PT, mess with some filters and find out. Yes my book is available at my website, link in my sig.
 
JCgrind

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plus EP limp/3b is big pairs like 99% of the time so youre never going to get money in. if you limp 3b, non tards (ie the ones who will raise you and not just limp behind) are going to know this, and only call to setmine.

end result, if you get called OTF after limp/3bing youre in a pretty gross spot with a hand thats hard to fold
 
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