OMG!!! Do You Just Not Get It?!? First Key to Winning

MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
My friend and poker buddy (we'll call him Don) plays 2 or 3 live tournaments a week and will keep me posted on his progress via text messages. Invariably I will finally get a phone call from him as he exits the building in the "walk of shame". Don will tell me all about how terrible the other players are and how stupidly they played as he begins the "details" of his latest bad luck suck out.

His last story went something like this:
DON: "So I have ATo and the flop comes A45. So I bet and everyone folds except for one guy. I bet the turn and he calls again. A 6 comes on the river and he shoves. I can't figure out what he has but I'm really curious and have to know so I call. HE HAD MOTHERF*!$&+: 23! TWO - THREE!!! WHAT THE F@#$?!?! I CANNOT CATCH A BREAK!"

ME: "What was the opening bet? How much did he come into the hand for?"

DON: "There were a couple limpers ahead of me so I called. A couple more guys called after me and he was one of them - WITH F@#$:+* TWO THREE!!!"

ME: "Well a primary objective when playing poker is to isolate - get it down to you and one other guy. Why didn't you raise?"

DON: "Because I only had AT and there were several to act after me."

ME: "Okay, why didn't you fold?"

DON: "Because I had AT!"

And it just goes back and forth like that, weekly, literally for years now.

ISOLATE! ISOLATE! ISOLATE! YOU CANNOT ISOLATE BY LIMPING!

So despite Don's lack of real information about the hand, let's look a little deeper. Don gets into the hand, feeling like AT is worthy of a limp. He becomes the 3rd person to limp. At this point he is 44% to win the hand. Not bad, but clearly an underdog to the field. But, as Don points out, there are several players still to act. If someone makes a standard raise (about 6x at this point) then Don will fold. This is what prevented him from raising in the first place - someone after him might have a hand. So if that happens on his limp he only loses one BB. If the limp holds up (as Don hopes it will) then certainly the BB, at minimum joins the field, now making Don's AT 34% to win - 2-1 UNDERDOG. But you have to at least consider the certainty of the BTN or the SB to also join in in that kind of situation. We'll just count on only one of them though - now 5 players are in to see a flop and the AT has dropped to 28% to win. You know what? Go to the roulette table and bet on black - MUCH BETTER odds at 46% In fact better odds than when DON came into the hand.
Not to mention the fact that with 4 other players in the field the chance that someone else has an Ace is 40%. This means a potential nightmare should an A come out on the flop (it did). This is why AT is considered a "trouble hand". It will get you in trouble.

The initial key to playing winning poker is to isolate. This is the reason you hear from professionals there are only two choices preflop - fold or raise. Does it take courage? Absolutely! Otherwise you're just playing roulette. Everything is left to a spin of the wheel and you really don't have to concern yourself with strategy or odds or tells or any of that poker playing bullshit getting in the way of your good time.

DON! PULL YOUR HEAD OUT BOY!
 
Tammy

Tammy

Can I help you?
Administrator
Joined
May 18, 2005
Total posts
57,536
Awards
11
US
Chips
1,170
An old friend gave me some great poker advice once with these four little words: "Limpers must be punished." Meaning, raise it up, make them pay. Of course there needs to be a little more finesse and critical thinking that goes into how/when/why/etc. But to me, a player that continually limps in just to "see" what they'll get, or a player that does not use their position and isolate as you say is the mark of a weak player.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
And, of course, Negreanu said it in three - "PUNISH THE LIMPERS!"
But the hidden message in this is "ISOLATE!" This is why we should not let limpers get away with it.

Another matter on this, to continue the discussion, is Don will always say there is no point in raising because everyone will just call anyway. If you are reading this and feel that way... YOU ARE NOT RAISING ENOUGH! It's that simple. I know the book is raise 3x plus one for each limper - but you have to realize there is no magic in that equation. It never says, "Do this and everyone except for one guy will fold." The truth is you have to find the magic number that allows you to put fear into their hearts. This goes for just open raising too. Sometimes 3x is just not enough. Sometimes 2x will make it happen. Last one of these tournaments I played I open raised a hand for 6x UTG (since there had been a bunch of passive play up until that point). I did not want 3 to 5 callers, I wanted one and only one. I got one and won the hand that went to the river (I was ahead the whole time). When you have a hand you can raise - you get in and raise. You raise what it takes to get the job done, not what some book told you to do. BTW, I continued my tight and aggressive+ play throughout that 100 man tournament and cashed in 6th - going out on a hand I was ahead on before and after the flop.
 
rari458

rari458

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 11, 2017
Total posts
76
Chips
0
This was one of my hardest habits to break, the whole "bet or fold" mentality just didn't make sense to me until I realized that after a while, even if nobody would bet, I'm losing a BB almost every hand.

Don't be a Don!
 
T

thiagoc85

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 28, 2017
Total posts
5
Chips
0
Great Post!!!

I am new to online poker and have lost many many hands where I was the upper hand preflop.. It's just hard to raise when hand is not too strong.

Still adjusting!
 
C

CallmeFloppy

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Total posts
1,296
Awards
2
Chips
1
Great post. Generally I find that when I am not having the results I am used to, it is because I am playing like a Don. Great post and point made.
 
M

mabeyta

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Total posts
79
Chips
0
This is pretty much what happened to me but I did learn from it. I had A10o also, I limped with the rest. 7 8 9 hit the board with a straight draw on the board. I bet half pot, most fold except 1 who just calls, 6 hits the board, I shove and the guy calls. Shows J10o. I knew that If I had raised the A10o properly, I might not have been in that situation the J10o might have folded. It was a hard lesson to learn but it hit home.

A10 is a rough hand, it is appealing but more often than not you are beat with a better ace.
 
mst32ro

mst32ro

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Total posts
88
Awards
1
Chips
1
Great post. Never limp with limpers, better fold,lol.
 
A

AlexTheOwl

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Total posts
860
Chips
0
Excellent posts Media, I hope Don learns his lesson someday.

But what do we think about the play of the winner? They also "limped with the limpers", with 23. Did they make a mistake?

There were at least three limpers before the winner (Don and the couple of people before him), so they were getting at least 4.5:1 for their bet.

The winner was also in late position (later than Don, anyway). He or she had less concern about having to fold to a pre-flop raise, since there were relatively few players left to play.

Unlike Don's AT, the winner's 23 wasn't likely to be the second-best hand post-flop. They would have a strong hand, or a draw to a strong hand (a straight; a flush, if it was 23 suited; or, less likely, trips, a full house, or quads), or they would have nothing. If they had nothing, they could easily fold on the flop.

I think it's fine to limp with the limpers in a multi-way pot with small or medium pocket pairs, or suited connectors (23 is really pushing it though - I draw the line at 54s). But only if your limp is from late position, and you have a medium or large stack (in a tournament).
 
Last edited:
M

Maggio_A

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 26, 2020
Total posts
124
Chips
0
Really nice post, but some people have to learn it hard way, maybe some of them will never learn it. Which is kind of good for us I guess :D
 
Pokerpoet2

Pokerpoet2

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 7, 2020
Total posts
2,483
Awards
2
GB
Chips
253
I will usually 3X with Ace ten suited but only 2X if off suit, some times depending on blind levels, how deep we are,and position as to the button etc all play a good part in my decision making.
If we are down to 3 players the best strategy is to shove all-in.

1st and 3rd best 2nd worst.
 
manzanillo53

manzanillo53

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Total posts
1,227
Awards
2
Chips
78
My friend and poker buddy (we'll call him Don) plays 2 or 3 live tournaments a week and will keep me posted on his progress via text messages. Invariably I will finally get a phone call from him as he exits the building in the "walk of shame". Don will tell me all about how terrible the other players are and how stupidly they played as he begins the "details" of his latest bad luck suck out.

His last story went something like this:
DON: "So I have ATo and the flop comes A45. So I bet and everyone folds except for one guy. I bet the turn and he calls again. A 6 comes on the river and he shoves. I can't figure out what he has but I'm really curious and have to know so I call. HE HAD MOTHERF*!$&+: 23! TWO - THREE!!! WHAT THE F@#$?!?! I CANNOT CATCH A BREAK!"

ME: "What was the opening bet? How much did he come into the hand for?"

DON: "There were a couple limpers ahead of me so I called. A couple more guys called after me and he was one of them - WITH F@#$:+* TWO THREE!!!"

ME: "Well a primary objective when playing poker is to isolate - get it down to you and one other guy. Why didn't you raise?"

DON: "Because I only had AT and there were several to act after me."

ME: "Okay, why didn't you fold?"

DON: "Because I had AT!"

And it just goes back and forth like that, weekly, literally for years now.

ISOLATE! ISOLATE! ISOLATE! YOU CANNOT ISOLATE BY LIMPING!

So despite Don's lack of real information about the hand, let's look a little deeper. Don gets into the hand, feeling like AT is worthy of a limp. He becomes the 3rd person to limp. At this point he is 44% to win the hand. Not bad, but clearly an underdog to the field. But, as Don points out, there are several players still to act. If someone makes a standard raise (about 6x at this point) then Don will fold. This is what prevented him from raising in the first place - someone after him might have a hand. So if that happens on his limp he only loses one BB. If the limp holds up (as Don hopes it will) then certainly the BB, at minimum joins the field, now making Don's AT 34% to win - 2-1 UNDERDOG. But you have to at least consider the certainty of the BTN or the SB to also join in in that kind of situation. We'll just count on only one of them though - now 5 players are in to see a flop and the AT has dropped to 28% to win. You know what? Go to the roulette table and bet on black - MUCH BETTER ODDS at 46% In fact better odds than when DON came into the hand.
Not to mention the fact that with 4 other players in the field the chance that someone else has an Ace is 40%. This means a potential nightmare should an A come out on the flop (it did). This is why AT is considered a "trouble hand". It will get you in trouble.

The initial key to playing winning poker is to isolate. This is the reason you hear from professionals there are only two choices preflop - fold or raise. Does it take courage? Absolutely! Otherwise you're just playing roulette. Everything is left to a spin of the wheel and you really don't have to concern yourself with strategy or odds or tells or any of that poker playing bullshit getting in the way of your good time.

DON! PULL YOUR HEAD OUT BOY!
Wow, Probably would have played it the same way. Not anymore. thank you for the great incite of another pair of cards I play badly. I am going to look and follow more of your analyses.
 
S

skaterick

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jul 2, 2015
Total posts
1,766
Awards
10
US
Chips
123
i like to say ....

if you play lots of limped pots ,you'd better be ready to make lots of tough folds !
 
tagece

tagece

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2015
Total posts
1,875
Awards
2
BR
Chips
519
Nice tip. I always love when I have a weak hand and I can see the flop calling 1 bb.
But sometimes this strategy doesn't work very well. In a table full of weak players They will call your raise with any kind of hand. And even when you have the best hand, you will need a bit of luck to win.
 
okeedokalee

okeedokalee

Glory To Ukraine
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Total posts
5,542
Awards
22
NZ
Chips
163
Here's my advice, if you can't find a raise, fold. You have no business being in the hand.
 
Shantaram

Shantaram

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Total posts
38
Chips
0
how many times have you raised or reraised significantly to get into a flop of 552 - and because u reraised and isolated you tell yourself he can't have a 5. So when he pushes all in you talk yourself into a hero call with your AK and he turns over K5 or something.

Yes punish the limpers but there are players who are calling raises on feel. They intuit something is coming or they're on a hot streak. It's at these times I'd rather limp in myself and only get truly involved if I hit something meaty.
 
P

Phyrrura

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 27, 2020
Total posts
262
Awards
1
Chips
6
Woooow, very thanks for your time on writing this history down. I was already being convinced of that rule, but now that you are telling this this way, i'm sure will think of that tip the next time I'm afraid of raising some ATo or so hand. If you are not secure to raise, just fold, it's okay.
 
BigCountryAA

BigCountryAA

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Total posts
762
Chips
0
While true a lot of the time. There are plenty of opportunities to call limps in position. Plenty of hands perform well multi-way.
 
D

Dhendrixon

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Total posts
173
Awards
1
Chips
0
If you are raising and still getting more than two callers, than you need to raise the amount you are raising. There is an amount that will get people to fold and your goal is to find that amount. That amount will vary day to day, hour by hour and table by table. A live $1/$3 cash game that amount might be $20 or $25 that is normal for the raise to be +5bb to get the job accomplished. If it is too much to raise then tighten your range, so your premiums get paid.
 
6

619Leafs

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Total posts
1,790
Awards
1
Chips
4
Most important thing with hands like A8,A9,A10 or Ace smalls is to raise in position, call to defend. If there are more than 3 players in the pot. A10 should not be played. Remember more players is bad idea with A10.
 
Top