Is is ok to fold KK pre flop??

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JesusHMazzei

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Well, i was in a poker school freeroll and it was early on, like 2 lvl of blinds, so i get KK, at the button... there hadn't been that much action on the table to have some sort of read from the players.. everybody seem to play cautious.. everybody had around 1500 and the blinds were 15/30... So, i bet 4 times the blind, as i was supposed to.. and the big blind re raised me... we basically had the same stack, i had like 60 chips more than him... now i have seen many re raises in these "freeroll" tournaments without even having connectors.. i felt i could re raise because i had KK, i mean come on... so i re-raised... and the guy went all in... and even tough i felt there was a posibbility that he could have AA... it was waaay to slim.. right?? i mean there was only one hand that could beat my KK pre flop... so i paid.. and yep, you guessed it.. he had AA... so i was left with 60 chips and out the next hand..
Now, should i have sensed that at some point?? should i have said "naah.. he has AA.. im beat... I AM GOING TO FOLD POCKET KINGS"... or was i "forced" to see it through.. i mean if it was after seeing the flop and there was an A, maybe.. but pre flop?? is KK an "unfoldable" hand pre-flop??

Thanks!
PS: I am kind of new into this poker world so, be gentle :D
 
No1eJoker

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No, I would never fold KK on pre flop!
Maybe when he call all-in 4 opponents or more, but it is also questionable.
 
Gabinho12345

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You can't fold KK with 50bb, especially in freerolls against unknown opponents. Just unlucky that he had AA.
 
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TheBigZazoo

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Ok, here's how I look at this situation.... IMO you got caught with the re-raise, not to say re-raising shouldn't be done, but in this spot where you said there was a lot of cautious play and this person raised your 4x BB raise.....that seems like a great place to call with KK and see the flop... of course your thinking should be that your opponent has AA, AK, QQ, and at very worst JJ (but probably not that low).... once you see flop, that will inform your future play since putting he/she on top of the range , the flop betting and or turn betting will give much more info as to what your opponent is holding.....
I have seen so many all-in calls pre-flop in the early stages of free or low cost MTT's that it borders on ridiculous and usually turns out to be a flip of the coin type situation..... these type plays take skill completely out of the equation.... Now just think, had you called given the pre-flop info you had, after seeing the flop (which you never posted) do you think that information ,along with your opponents play, would have helped you in determining whether or not Ks were good? Only you can know that, but in the future remember more info is better and try to put yourself in your opponents place.....what cards would have to be holding to raise a 4x BB raise pre-flop in a game with cautious players?.....this type of consideration will go a long way in improving your gameplay.....
 
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JesusHMazzei

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Ok, here's how I look at this situation.... IMO you got caught with the re-raise, not to say re-raising shouldn't be done, but in this spot where you said there was a lot of cautious play and this person raised your 4x BB raise.....that seems like a great place to call with KK and see the flop... of course your thinking should be that your opponent has AA, AK, QQ, and at very worst JJ (but probably not that low).... once you see flop, that will inform your future play since putting he/she on top of the range , the flop betting and or turn betting will give much more info as to what your opponent is holding.....
I have seen so many all-in calls pre-flop in the early stages of free or low cost MTT's that it borders on ridiculous and usually turns out to be a flip of the coin type situation..... these type plays take skill completely out of the equation.... Now just think, had you called given the pre-flop info you had, after seeing the flop (which you never posted) do you think that information ,along with your opponents play, would have helped you in determining whether or not Ks were good? Only you can know that, but in the future remember more info is better and try to put yourself in your opponents place.....what cards would have to be holding to raise a 4x BB raise pre-flop in a game with cautious players?.....this type of consideration will go a long way in improving your gameplay.....
Yeah i thought about it afterwards, just calling the re-raise but i think i got too excited with the Kings haha.. but honestly i dont really remember the flop, but i do remember that i wouldnt have folded... It wasnt a dangerous flop for pocket kings

Regardless, you do make i very valid point. I would keep it in mind. Thanks!
 
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Joazinhograna

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You can't fold KK with 50bb, especially in freerolls against unknown opponents. Just unlucky that he had AA.
At first, this is the excuse that is mostly used to loosed played hands. And look, poker has fold too, so KK is foldable.
 
vinnie

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Nope, in a tournament situation, it is almost never correct to fold KK pre-flop. That said, there was a time when I almost did it. I'll try and lay the hand out.

Live tournament. Second level.
Blinds 25/50, effective stacks are roughly 2,000 chips.

Hero has KK

UTG raises to 150
1 player folds
Hero raises to 500
2 players fold
CO raises all-in to 2,000
BTN and both blinds fold
UTG calls all-in 2,000
Hero: "Gross."

I've rounded the stacks. But, the CO had the UTG player covered. I had the CO covered, but just barely. The stack sizes were very close. Now, this was a weekly live tournament. The UTG player was new, but I have played 2-3 tournaments a week, for almost two years, with the CO. He was the host of the game. He was also the nittiest player I have ever seen. Typically, he would blind out of the tournament at some point, without ever taking a stand. I did not recall ever seeing him 3-bet, let alone cold 4-bet.

It was Aces. He had to have aces. There was no other hand he would play this way. Not even KK, which he would call and wait to make sure there was no ace on the flop. Now, I truly agonized about this. Because, I should fold. I finally told him, "I know you've got Aces, but I am not good enough to fold KK. I guess I am going to pay you off. I call."

I flip my hand over and he immediately tables his Aces. The UTG player turned over AQo.

Even in this spot, I don't think I made a mistake. I think that's the closest you can come to making a mistake by not folding KK pre-flop, and it was with hundreds of hours of history and a very well defined opponent range.

Edit: Even in this spot, my EV was only -385 on my 1,500 chip call. It's not good, but it is smaller than the mistake would have been if he had KK (+558) or QQ (+2,474) and I folded incorrectly. Sure, those were weighted less because of how unlikely they were, but any player is capable of surprising you.
 
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fernandoprrt

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KK is obviously a Monster hand. In The League freeroll you should play tight early, It needs some luck, when you double, you can start put pressure in others. I think in this hand, you could had lost less chips, folded in some street, or go to showdown without all-in.
 
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I am always surprised by the people who raise and then complain that they have suffered - raising - the signal that I'm ready ... but where is my best advice ... in the early stages the value of KK and your stack is Minimal ....
 
Erpherk

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I saw a guy fold AA once on the tv. To me KK is unfoldable pre flop, but we all get to choose how to play our own hands so any option is correct.
 
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Fastone2

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Folding KK Pre Flop

That is a difficult decision to fold KK, pre flop. Its a really good start to obtain chips. Even tho, the AA could be held by another player. In addition, the risk factors are always there for KK AA or any two cards. I have seen many times, AA gets beat with most anything.....
Basically, a player can do the smart things an luck will change it all....
 
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John Bor

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My stats say AA and KK win majority of the time. So very rarely would I fold and not call. I think folding in that position might suggest one is a little light on the bankroll? Although on occasion I will fold a monster pair if there is too much action pre-flop with too many people in... straight or two pair is usually going to win those hands, in my minimal experience.:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
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joeyjmr8484

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There is no way I fold Kings preflop no matter what. I also never fold QQ preflop...I figure there are only two hands that beat me when I have QQ and if they have them good for them but I never fold QQ preflop.
 
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I would have gone pre-flop all in only if all in are more than 2 players, if less then definitely call always. It happens, but in most cases in my opinion this is the right decision since only older can be AA
 
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Thenightrain

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Heads up then no don't fold. If the action has been raised 3 or 4 times in front of you then maybe yes as someone is going to have AA (most likely the last raiser) or they would have folded.
 
veritasi

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KK it's really good pocket pair on pre flop, and i thin'k, that fold in this situation is really stupid, but u could not re raise him to c the flop..
 
cranberry

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I think, that in this case you did everything right. You just did not get lucky. In fact, the chances of having a pocket of kings against a pocket of aces on a full table (9 players) is only 4%. Pocket hand KK at a distance will be profitable.
 
TeUnit

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unless you have some sort of crazy super duper trooper tight player or there are icm issues i dont think you can fold KK especially in your standard format mtts with normal stack sizes
 
walluyo

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KK it's really good pocket pair on pre flop, and i thin'k, that fold in this situation is really stupid, but u could not re raise him to c the flop..
How can you say stupid, every player have their own playing style.
 
Aalexandar

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You should never fold KK unless you're in some huge clown fiesta multi way 5 people pot. Especially in these types of bingo tournaments where players raising and reraising and going all in can mean anything from 72 to AA. You did the right thing, you just ran into a player who back up his raises with his hand sadly. But that's 2/10 cases in these tourneys.
 
Amanda A

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I wouldn't fold KK pre flop either. Some hands you are destined to lose. The only thing you can try and do is play smaller pots to control the damage if you lose, but honestly I think you need to get a little lucky to win or do well in a tourney and if you are getting dealt KK when someone has AA that's not lucky. You'll be lucky another time.
 
Dailon Arroyo Blandon

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There are some circumstances that I would not do. Let's see the following situation If some villain plays all in and has more chips than my person and the tournament is at the time of the bubble and I am within the range of the prizes I would not do it would be very risky to eliminate me and lose The possibility of the prize as well as lose two or three hours or more that I have invested in the tournament.
 
vinnie

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You should never fold KK unless you're in some huge clown fiesta multi way 5 people pot. Especially in these types of bingo tournaments where players raising and reraising and going all in can mean anything from 72 to AA. You did the right thing, you just ran into a player who back up his raises with his hand sadly. But that's 2/10 cases in these tourneys.

Nope, even a 5 way huge clown fiesta pot is still a call with KK. You have 49.8% equity against 4 random hands, 46.4% against 4 people playing 20% ranges, 41.9% against 4 people playing 10% ranges, etc. You're only in real trouble when someone definitely has AA, which is something that is not certain in games where 5 people are all-in pre-flop. Yes, you will lose a little more than half the time in a 5 way pot, but you have the equity. Where else do you expect to get a 1.10-1.49 times your stack return on your bet? Even AA vs a random hand only returns 0.7 times your stack.
 
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Alex Melnik

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I would never fold the KK on pre-flop.
 
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