newbie - doubts and pains

hi all,

I started to play online poker week ago, couple of hours at weekend days, hour or so at "normal" days and some questions appear in my head. I hope you can help me with them and clarify some gray areas.

first of all from my very limited experience it seems that people will bet, raise and go all in with virtually any kind of hand. AA, 22, 42, 77, no matter what they have - they bet to the end just to see a river. and unfortunately I lose very often because they draw second pair, flush, three of a kind and at one occasion I lost to royal flush: I had AA in my hand so I bet 10BB, got called, flop was Ad, 6h, 3d, I went all in, guy went all in - cards landed: 5d, 6d and he had 2d4d in his hand. who would predict something like that?

of course yesterday I had AA, went all in, cards landed and I ended up winning with 5 straight so dumb luck plays both ways. but it seems to favour my opponents more than me so I don't like it

I tried some SnG's but I don't feel that kind of game. I tried to play from the start I never got into final three. I tried to play only strong hands and go all in - same result, only few dolars or euros lost.

I play at 0.02/0.04 tables so money goes relatively slow but opponents' draws sometimes costs me big chunks of my bankroll. And what mostly frustrates me is that when I try to play only strong hands I wait, and wait, and wait, and wait... and finally I have KK, bet strong and guy calls, flop is K 10 2, I go bigger and most of time guy is drawing something stronger than my K trio. so what's the point in waiting so long?

after couple of hours playing at micro I went to limit 0.5/1 table with my last 13 euros in my pocket and... left the table with 37 euros about half an hour later. there was six of us at table for 10 so rounds were pretty fast and blinds hurt a little but people seemed to be more resilient in hand they played. I bluffed few times with A10o but mostly I played pairs 99+ and folded otherwise so I think I played rather good game not like some maniac calling everything and drawing miracles. so could it be than higher stake is less dumb luck driven or I just got lucky like people I am complaining about earlier?

my biggest doubt is about "patience" part of poker. I play an hour, two, three, and play maybe 10 hands in that time and have 20 cents more that I came with so where is the profit from it. I know I can't turn 10 euros into millions but hour of my life is worth more than 5 cents! yes, maybe I should stop play poker and go do something with my life but I like the idea of learning and playing a good game.

and all of those advices for newbies like "they take your 5 bucks in a second by dumb luck but they loose it next day to somebody else". well, I don't care if they loose it, I care that they took money from me in a first place. so what, should I just fold with triple A when guy keeps calling my bets and raises because he may have something better? I'm not talking about bluffing, I'm talking about losing money with really strong hands. I know it happens due to luck factor of a game but why I keep losing and they keep winning?

ok, sorry for going postal on you but I felt like if I don't share my pains with somebody I go and do something completely stupid with my money.

You need to study the game more. Read a book, watch videos, learn from this forum, etc..

Welcome to Cardschat

grapkulec said:

hi all,

I started to play online poker week ago, couple of hours at weekend days, hour or so at "normal" days and some questions appear in my head. I hope you can help me with them and clarify some gray areas.

first of all from my very limited experience it seems that people will bet, raise and go all in with virtually any kind of hand. AA, 22, 42, 77, no matter what they have - they bet to the end just to see a river. and unfortunately I lose very often because they draw second pair, flush, three of a kind and at one occasion I lost to royal flush: I had AA in my hand so I bet 10BB, got called, flop was Ad, 6h, 3d, I went all in, guy went all in - cards landed: 5d, 6d and he had 2d4d in his hand. who would predict something like that?

In the lower stakes many opponents tend to play weird stuff, you should be happy because more often than not the draws don't complete. You opponent rivered a straight flush btw.

of course yesterday I had AA, went all in, cards landed and I ended up winning with 5 straight so dumb luck plays both ways. but it seems to favour my opponents more than me so I don't like it

Against a random hand you're about 80% favourite preflop with AA - it doesn't matter how you win that hand - be it a pair of Aces unimproved, a set of aces, straight, flush, a full house or quad XXXX with A kicker.

20% of all times you'll lose.

I tried some SnG's but I don't feel that kind of game. I tried to play from the start I never got into final three. I tried to play only strong hands and go all in - same result, only few dolars or euros lost.

Although it isn't a bad idea to play tight in the beginning of a STT (single table tournament) you'll need to play more than the top 5 hands later in the game if you want to survive. The strategy section of CC has some very good articles on this - scan the "golden archieve".

I play at 0.02/0.04 tables so money goes relatively slow but opponents' draws sometimes costs me big chunks of my bankroll. And what mostly frustrates me is that when I try to play only strong hands I wait, and wait, and wait, and wait... and finally I have KK, bet strong and guy calls, flop is K 10 2, I go bigger and most of time guy is drawing something stronger than my K trio. so what's the point in waiting so long?

As said most of the time the draw doesn't complete - bet your good hands strongly .

after couple of hours playing at micro I went to limit 0.5/1 table with my last 13 euros in my pocket and... left the table with 37 euros about half an hour later. there was six of us at table for 10 so rounds were pretty fast and blinds hurt a little but people seemed to be more resilient in hand they played. I bluffed few times with A10o but mostly I played pairs 99+ and folded otherwise so I think I played rather good game not like some maniac calling everything and drawing miracles. so could it be than higher stake is less dumb luck driven or I just got lucky like people I am complaining about earlier?

You were lucky here:

You clearly played above the level of good bankroll management here (BRM).

You're right though: At higher levels there're less complete morons (a few are still there but anyway).

Would you rather play against an all in bingo muppet or a good regular who might crush you postflop ?

my biggest doubt is about "patience" part of poker. I play an hour, two, three, and play maybe 10 hands in that time and have 20 cents more that I came with so where is the profit from it. I know I can't turn 10 euros into millions but hour of my life is worth more than 5 cents! yes, maybe I should stop play poker and go do something with my life but I like the idea of learning and playing a good game.

Patience is a key virtue playing poker, without patience you'll get nowhere.

and all of those advices for newbies like "they take your 5 bucks in a second by dumb luck but they loose it next day to somebody else". well, I don't care if they loose it, I care that they took money from me in a first place. so what, should I just fold with triple A when guy keeps calling my bets and raises because he may have something better? I'm not talking about bluffing, I'm talking about losing money with really strong hands. I know it happens due to luck factor of a game but why I keep losing and they keep winning?

ok, sorry for going postal on you but I felt like if I don't share my pains with somebody I go and do something completely stupid with my money.

Click to expand...

Take a look at the strategy section and start posting hands where you're not sure what to do in the hand analysis section.

Welcome to CC

WSOP13 said:

You need to study the game more. Read a book, watch videos, learn from this forum, etc..

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first thing I did after making deposit was a search for info, tips and strategies, how do you think I ended complaining here?

I learned a lot from posts here that's why I don't enter every hand I'm dealt. and I try to keep my head cool and not get involved into pissing contests but sometimes I go berserk and lose money in stupid situations. I think my biggest flaw is that I get invested too much in hands i shouldn't play at all and can't back off counting on a lucky draw. afterwards I look at hand I had and say "what were you thinking?" but it's too late, damage is already done.

I will try to keep going because I think that it is better to lose cents and practice my patience and how to deal with losing when playing smart than get lucky once or twice enter into higher levels and lose all my money because I did not learn anything when I had a chance.

Just keep playing for "cents" as you say, in the micros, and just play premium hands and ABC poker.. and make sure to review your hands, and post some hands you were unsure about in the hand history(HH) forum. Like you said.. you were looking at the hands you already played, and realized the mistake you made.. so since you realized it, maybe next time you get in a similar situation you will recognize it and play it better.. that is why you should def review your hands. Do this until you get many many hands at a certain limit you can afford until you start to win, there is no need to play a higher limit because they are better players and will respect you more, unless you have the bankroll to play that limit, and don't want to play it just because you think they will respect you more. The players that will call you with anything and everything will lose in the long run, that is why you use some sort of bankroll management, which if you use the search feature I am sure you can find many posts on the subject.

Online poker seems to be more hit than miss, you go in spells

the words: play your solid hands you'lw win more than the 10-7 random players isn't always the case, ive sat watching and recording hands on tournys after getting knocked out, people seem to play ace anything really hard massive raise with Ace 2-3-4 etc and then hit and go all in

ive been using ~Bwin and lately it seems the guy with the chips is hitting every hand (and they were) runs off straights, quads, good high end cards lots of hands on the trot

you see more flushes online than ever, so FOLDING is the key online stay safe don't get drawn into big money not all play any different

i had a few bad beats pre flop with AA in $50 S&G's 1st hand guy goes all in what can you do FOLD AA pre flop never j10 then kills you ITS JUST BEATS BAD THEY ARE

I feel you pain

Hey, grap..

I recently began playing Poker myself this past October.. Initially, I participated exclusively using play money on pokerstars.net.. After a few weeks of building a hefty 'virtual' bankroll, I decided to get a little more serious and deposited $10, the minimum allowed.. This following some time spent on the PokerSchoolOnline.com Web-site.. After completing a quiz and making the deposit, you're offered five $3.40 tickets to use in the SnG's offered in the micro tab on the PokerStars.net site.. I figured, Hey, free poker..? I'm game..! Besides, my play money status is looking healthy.. However, playing for 'play', and playing for real are apples to oranges.. At least that's what I assumed.. Playing in the micro games becomes very frustrating as a result of the seemingly endless string of donks, durrrrs, and fish constantly betting/calling/raising/re-raising with Any Two Cards in hopes of raking the pot.. My five tickets and initial deposit suffered from attempts to combat these tools by lowering my level of play.. My bankroll quickly became nil.. I was so frustrated as to why this was happening and needed to find resolve, and fast.. I love the game and wanted to improve.. I returned to the PSO Web-site and began to review the material that I 'skimmed' through prior.. I started to play in the PSO Skills League figuring it was a good place to play with people on my level and gain some much needed experience.. My first month I finished out in 4000-something place.. The following month (January) I began applying the strategies offered on the many Web-sites that I visited in search of improvement.. With-in the first ten or so days I rose to the top 50 players, out of a pool of nearly 10k.. This was exciting for me considering there's some pretty solid players among the ranks.. After realizing I was not an 'active' player and my reward was reduced to 1/10 of what I could've made, and following a suggestion from a fellow PSO SL member of whom I become friends with, I began playing for money and entered into the Sunday 1/4 Million and placed in the top 5% of nearly 40k..! It netted me a return of 6x my entry fee of $11.. I was ecstatic..! Shortly there-after, I entered into a few $2.20 SnG's and won two top prizes boosting my bankroll to over $300.. Granted, I played under a considerable amount of luck and stole a few hands by sucking-out, but that's Poker.. Now I find it difficult to play at certain times of day because of the influx of people just wanting to gamble and have no true interest in improving.. My decision was to move up a step to the low-limit tab and try my game there.. I've found that there's alot less donks there playing ATC and players actually applying proper fundamentals, although there's still a few donkeys there, just ones with more money to burn.. By sticking to sound reasoning and applying the strategies learned from the sum of hours of play and hours of research, I've found I'm highly competitive at the higher stakes levels and on the hunt for a pretty good payday with continued learning and analysis of my play.. This comes from reading blogs, forum posts/replies, and lots of playing time mixed with the desire and heart to play well and win big.. Keep persevering and try to build a BR large enough to allow play at the higher stakes.. Don't get discouraged by the lousy, unreasonable play of others and stick to tight-aggressive play.. There's a time and place to loosen up, but first gain some experience by watching what transpires at the tables and making mental notes on what you could've done differently in any given situation to have increased the size of pots you're raking, making proper folds when necessary (yes, even with A-A) by realizing it's a losing situation, assessing the play of others at the table et cetera.. Donks will always be there, and fish will always throw out line, even after hanging themselves with it.. Be patient..! You'll soon want them at your table because they donate, willingly.. Wait for the correct opportunity and start the grill.. It's lunch-time.. And guess who's on the menu..?

Anyway, I hope this helps.. Feel free to message me with any questions.. And try the PSO SL.. Good luck..

Ricey155 said:

Online poker seems to be more hit than miss, you go in spells

the words: play your solid hands you'lw win more than the 10-7 random players isn't always the case, ive sat watching and recording hands on tournys after getting knocked out, people seem to play ace anything really hard massive raise with Ace 2-3-4 etc and then hit and go all in

ive been using ~Bwin and lately it seems the guy with the chips is hitting every hand (and they were) runs off straights, quads, good high end cards lots of hands on the trot

The guy with more chips can play a little bit looser, therefore they can push other people around if they have the stack to do so.

you see more flushes online than ever, so FOLDING is the key online stay safe don't get drawn into big money not all play any different

You see more EVERYTHING online because it all goes so much faster. You see way WAY more hands per hour online than you see live, especially if you multitable.. so therefore you see more of everything, including bad beats.

i had a few bad beats pre flop with AA in $50 S&G's 1st hand guy goes all in what can you do FOLD AA pre flop never j10 then kills you ITS JUST BEATS BAD THEY ARE
Nah never fold AA preflop.. you want the JT to call you. Yes sometimes they will win, but you will win many more times than them. We just seem to remember the times we lose more often than the times we win, or suckout vs AA.

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So just keep grinding

thanks for words of encouragement and all tips and responses

I think that one of basic rules in poker - especially for newbies like me - should be "If you have doubts - FOLD!".

As I mentioned before, pretty often I go into battle with hands that afterwards make me think "wtf was that?". To be honest sometimes I find myself limping into rounds after couple seconds of looking at my cards and thinking "is it enough?" and I have like AJ or K10 so rather weak hands. and of course they are always too weak and somebody calls on me or raises and I'm done.

So, when I come home and sit at my computer and enter my poker room I will try to play strong hands, not getting into stupid fights with maniacs and first of all fold on any sign of a doubt in a power of my hand. We'll see what I will have to say tomorrow

Yesterday I created an account at full tilt poker (man, their software and sign up process is soooo smoother than at Paradise Poker I played up to now), deposited $30 and went into Rush on lowest stakes. Apart of being fun, Rush's "quick fold" function feels almost like I requested a new hand because I didn't like what I get "I won't play with that crap, give me ne ones!"

And I tried to play according to "if in doubt - fold" rule and keep away from getting into stupid bets with pair of 9's or something like that. having lower pairs I just limped into game and if seeing flop was getting to expensive I just folded and move on. At one moment I was $3 ahead but I felt I need a brake because it was after almost an hour of constant clicking on "quick fold" with occasional bets and raises when hand seemed strong enough. So I went and watched some tv.

And I wish I never come back to poker yesterday...

Basically I still played strong cards but few times I went all in and opponent had better hand. So I refilled my chips and... lost them again few minutes later.

Third time I said to myself that now I play only TT+. And I was on BB with 88 and nobody bet and I saw a flop: 8A2 so I bet, one folded, one raised, I raised more, he called... turn was 7, river was 7. guess what guy was holding? frickin 77...

Now I have $21 so damage was severe. But the worst part is that I can't review my hands history because FTP software doesn't have saving history enabled by default. F**k me gently!

Lowest FT rush NLHE buy in: 5$

You're not properly bankrolled for 5$ cash games.

Assuming you play with 30 buy-ins you need to have 150$ in your roll to overcome variance.

Personally I go with 40 buy-ins but I'm a BR nit .

Why not play 2$NL standard ring instead where you can actually get reads from your opponents ?

Another point: rush stinks imo

Don't play Rush if you're new to the game. It's just a bad idea all around.

From reading your posts, it seems you have decent hand selection, but judging from what I've read you have alot to learn about position and judging your opponents ranges.

I'm not going to go into a long lesson about those topics here because it's almost 4 am and I'm damn tired, but use the search function and you'll find alot of good threads and posts on the matter.

One thing I would strongly suggest is pick one format, be it SNG, MTT, ring or whatever and just stick with it. Learn it, master it, love it and soon you will make profit from it. Skills and plays that may work in one format can have disastrous effects in another. For example, I do well at SNG and MTT, but I am a total fish at even the lowest levels in cash games. The skills I have at my chosen formats do not translate to cash very well.

And if you are not already, you should spend far more time studying than playing. Especially if you are new to the game. Personally, I spend at least 1 hour studying for every three I spend playing. And I'm still far from a great player.

GL at the tables man!

grafkarow said:

Lowest FT rush NLHE buy in: 5$

You're not properly bankrolled for 5$ cash games.

Assuming you play with 30 buy-ins you need to have 150$ in your roll to overcome variance.

Personally I go with 40 buy-ins but I'm a BR nit .

Why not play 2$NL standard ring instead where you can actually get reads from your opponents ?

Another point: rush stinks imo

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idea of Rush seems fun but I assume that in the long run I'm too small (in money and knowledge) to profit from it any time soon. but I wanted to try something new instead of just reading about it. I agree that even at my low level of playing experience full ring non-rush game is better training field than rushing through my bankroll

yesterday I went into regular (not rush) micro (0.01/0.02) full table poker and made my $21 into $31 pretty quickly, mainly because I was committing into a pot when I had strong cards not just a hunch I could draw something big. So, I guess playing tight pays well

and I don't know if being over $30 is burden with some curse or something but I did stupid moves (again) and lost $6 in stupid all ins (again) so now I'm down to $25.

but what was a surprise to me people played pretty tight at all tables I visited. there was no calling and raising with weak hands like I used to see at Paradise Poker. so my bold pre-flop bets and flop pot sized raises had proper impact and I could double my buyins. of course I got carried away and at some point some tight player slapped me without mercy and send to cashier couple of times. I guess playing stupid doesn't pay at all

I got couple of books about poker theory in general and playing online poker so today I will read till my eyes bleed. probably it will raise some questions so I guess I will spawn few threads shortly if search won't have answers.

and I finally configured poker tracker and have some small sample of my history hands so when I'll get tired of reading books I will review my play and probably share with you some of my spectacular "achievements"

once again thank you for welcoming and all support

Nice job - always good to hear when advice is taken seriously.

In your particular case it might have even saved you from going busto -too early to say yet but still.

i would not play cash at the start, id go tourny a get a feel

cash is harsh even low stakes you could get nailed for big money early and get hurt, losing hurts its a game after all we all want to win