MTT survival tactics; Ace on the flop

Michael Paler

Michael Paler

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Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility. So any two cards that are held - 2,3,4,5 or K,Q,J,10 - makes any ace flop a possible straight or straight draw if there are no middle cards present. Even then, another oddity about this can felt you as well...If you have a 4-5 and the flop is A-2-3, you got the nuts, right? Only for right now;

Hero: 4-5

Villian: K-Q

Flop: A-2-3

Turn: J

River: 10

Both players now have a straight! Hero goes to zero. In this example, the dumb end of the straight is also an completly different straight. So, if the Hero slow played it or faced a calling station, he could end up dead by the river. Again, this only applies when there is no flush present. Always keep that in mind. A weak player will call bets hoping to hit top pair, despite the clear straight and over card present! This is why they so often “suck out” to a win.

If you give your opponent the pot odds to call with any two card combination of K-Q-J-10 on any ace flop they will. They have 3 parts of a straight! A calling station will, even if not getting the right pot odds, as they do not understand pot odds. This gets tricky for the low end. When I flop a 5 high straight with a board ace, I occasionally move all in. That is dangerous (I’ll get to why in a minute) yet once the fourth higher straight draw card comes on the turn, now there is even less chance of getting a fold. Maybe a good player might not risk it on the turn with only one card to come, yet a weak player or a calling station most certainly will.

Yet there is a dangerous problem with moving all in on the flop. Again, from a calling station, mostly. In the above example, if the weak player or calling station has say, 5-6, then he only needs a 4 to make a higher straight. That is more than enough to call an all in and chase that 4 for a calling station or weak player.

So you might have to risk taking it to the turn; just bet the flop and see if another bad card misses on the turn if called. For this 4-5 example, that would be:

Any K-Q-J-10

5 (4-6 wins)

6 (5-7 draws to a four on the river)

7 (5-6 draws to four on the river)

8-9 are the only ones preventing a higher straight by the river, no matter the small card combination you have for a 5 high straight. When you make that flop bet keep in mind if it is too big, the other player might feel pot-committed if he calls. If not going all in on the flop, no need to bet more than 3/4 to full-pot size if that is your standard bet.

If not 8-9 and they have called, you have to ask yourself; could this guy have 4-6, 5-7, or 5-6? In a cash game, who cares? The odds will dictate all this. In an MTT, survival is a major factor. If you are facing a loose or weak player, then those hands are very possible. Weak players will bet into you or shove/over bet if they make a straight on the turn. Loose players are waiting for you to hang yourself. In either type of game you cannot ever play scared. So once a dangerous card hits in this situation in a MTT, you should give serious consideration to pot control, just in case.

Now all that being said, why agonize over all of this? Well, by now I am sure you can see one advantage. Keeping this all in mind can help pick off a bully or bluffer. If he bluff-bets the river and you know there is no way there is a higher straight beating you, then you do not want to go all in over his bluff! That will just wise him up. If you simply min re-raise he might just flat call at worse or at best do that himself and go all in to make the bluff/semi-bluff look scarier. Since you have the nut straight, you just got him to do what you could not otherwise;

Go all in with a weak hand when you hold the nuts.
 
DaReKa

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There are possible straight draws no matter which other cards come with the A, as long as they aren't a pair. Any combo of those middle cards you mention (6,7,8,9), make straight draws.

These are good things to think about, but I feel like you're over stressing the importance of caution when you know you have the best hand. Someone calling all in vs your straight with only a gut shot to a higher straight isn't my idea of a "dangerous problem." I hope every time I ever have a straight, I'll get called by a gut shot to a higher straight.
 
Michael Paler

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There are possible straight draws no matter which other cards come with the A, as long as they aren't a pair. Any combo of those middle cards you mention (6,7,8,9), make straight draws.

These are good things to think about, but I feel like you're over stressing the importance of caution when you know you have the best hand. Someone calling all in vs your straight with only a gut shot to a higher straight isn't my idea of a "dangerous problem." I hope every time I ever have a straight, I'll get called by a gut shot to a higher straight.

I'm not talking cash games. MTT. Thus the title. And a whole different beast. Play MTT just like cash you won't last long after a rebuy period, if available. And the entire post concerns when you have an ace flop without 6,7,8,9. And when you do have two of those you are looking at one possible st8 draw, not two possible str8 draws.

Unless you count just an ace as a runner runner draw as well, or the high end and the low end of a st8 as 2 different st8 draws.
 
DaReKa

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Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility

I'm not talking cash games. MTT. Thus the title. And a whole different beast. Play MTT just like cash you won't last long after a rebuy period, if available. And the entire post concerns when you have an ace flop without 6,7,8,9. And when you do have two of those you are looking at one possible st8 draw, not two possible str8 draws.

Unless you count just an ace as a runner runner draw as well, or the high end and the low end of a st8 as 2 different st8 draws.

The first paragraph says 6,7,8,9 eliminates the possibility of a straight draw; it doesn't.
And I'm aware you're not talking about cash games and they ought to be played differently, but if you're worried about getting called with 13% equity, then you are playing them wrong. Survival is about increasing your chip stack and staying ahead of the blinds too. You won't find many spots to double up better than 87% equity.
 
Michael Paler

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The first paragraph says 6,7,8,9 eliminates the possibility of a straight draw; it doesn't. (It does not say that that at all; poster has misread OP)
And I'm aware you're not talking about cash games and they ought to be played differently, but if you're worried about getting called with 13% equity, then you are playing them wrong. Survival is about increasing your chip stack and staying ahead of the blinds too. You won't find many spots to double up better than 87% equity.

That is wrong. If you have two middle cards and an Ace on the flop, you are looking at one possible st8; one backdoor as well, if you like to chase those. Most do not count runner-runner. Weak players and calling stations might.

As far as equity, is it 13% or 87% you are saying to not worry about? Normally, no, 13% would not make me worry as much about a call, unless it is a dangerous board such as the one with two completely different straights present. Then I will certainly keep that in mind**. While you are correct that 87% equity is a good spot to be in, it's not the same as having 13% equity.

**MTT
Hero: 4-5
Villain: K-Q
Flop/turn: A-2-J-3
Notice that while you have a made st8 on the turn, the bad guy has a strong straight draw (needs a ten), so if that is what you think he has then you will need to make sure your turn bet does not give him good pot odds to chase that 10. If facing a weak player that does not understand pot odds, he will call anyway. Thus a little pot control before seeing the river might be a good idea when facing a calling station or weak player, in case they are chasing and make it. :)
 
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sillymunchie

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are you trying to cash or win the MTT cus pot control agaiinst a fish is direct opposite to what you wanna do with 92% chance of winning the hand
 
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Any flop with an A and 2 cards that aren't paired puts a straight draw on the flop. That's 100% of flops with an A that is not paired:


A-9-8 has multiple straight draws etc.
 
DaReKa

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Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility.

I didn't misread it, which is why I bothered to include it in my previous post. This statement doesn't say anything about two straights; it says
a straight or possible straight draw
and says that the middle cards prevent that possibility.
 
Michael Paler

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Any flop with an A and 2 cards that aren't paired puts a straight draw on the flop. That's 100% of flops with an A that is not paired:


A-9-8 has multiple straight draws etc.

No, A-9-8 has one straight draw with both high ends and low ends (assuming the bold numbers are what you need, for example) 5-6-7-10 for the high/low or Q-J-10-7 for low/high. So either way is only one straight, since they would use the 8 and the 9.

Again, if there is an ace on the flop WITHOUT middle cards, that makes TWO different st8 draws possible. See the difference? A-2-K has two; a five high st8 draw (need 3-4-5) and ace high st8 draw (need Q-J-10). Two completely different straights.

Pretty neat, huh?
 
Michael Paler

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I didn't misread it, which is why I bothered to include it in my previous post. This statement doesn't say anything about two straights; it says

and says that the middle cards prevent that possibility.

As in (no middle cards) prevents the possibility of two completely different st8's (both a 5 high and a ace high) being present. And it does talk about two different straights! That is the whole point of the post; two completely different straights when without middle cards and you have an ace on the flop. If you do not agree or do not get it, that is fine. I only ask that you please refrain from starting an argument with me by misrepresenting what I posted. Thank you.

It is supposed to be a discussion about an oddity where the ace is being used for two different straights.:) I should think most people can understand that.
 
DaReKa

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I don't know what you find so hard to understand. I quoted the statement twice. It is blatantly false. It is wrong. That's all I was saying. I'm not misrepresenting you at all.

More importantly the advice not to bet "too big" in case people decide to call with out the proper odds to do so... is awful. Tourney or not.
 
vinnie

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Go all in with a weak hand when you hold the nuts.

:rofl:

This whole post is a huge pile of WIN, but this last line is my favorite part. We all know "the nuts" [in hold'em*] is often also a "weak hand".

*In Omaha, there might be cases where you hold the current nuts but you have a weak hand where you suffer from reverse implied odds against someone with multiple draws to better hands. But, we're talking Hold'em in this monstrosity of a thread. :p
 
Michael Paler

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I don't know what you find so hard to understand. I quoted the statement twice. It is blatantly false. It is wrong. That's all I was saying. I'm not misrepresenting you at all.

More importantly the advice not to bet "too big" in case people decide to call with out the proper odds to do so... is awful. Tourney or not.

I think it was pretty clear, yet you insist it is not, so I guess I lost you. I just do not know what to tell you then. Too bad. You could have learned something neat.:)

But I think this scene from Ted sums it up pretty well, because I know how Lori feels, lol;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dopXFXHLhSY
 
DaReKa

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Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility. So any two cards that are held - 2,3,4,5 or K,Q,J,10 - makes any ace flop a possible straight or straight draw if there are no middle cards present.
Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility. So any two cards that are held - 2,3,4,5 or K,Q,J,10 - makes any ace flop a possible straight or straight draw if there are no middle cards present.
Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility. So any two cards that are held - 2,3,4,5 or K,Q,J,10 - makes any ace flop a possible straight or straight draw if there are no middle cards present.
Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility. So any two cards that are held - 2,3,4,5 or K,Q,J,10 - makes any ace flop a possible straight or straight draw if there are no middle cards present.
Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility. So any two cards that are held - 2,3,4,5 or K,Q,J,10 - makes any ace flop a possible straight or straight draw if there are no middle cards present.
Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always a possible straight or straight draw on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility. So any two cards that are held - 2,3,4,5 or K,Q,J,10 - makes any ace flop a possible straight or straight draw if there are no middle cards present.
I think it was pretty clear, yet you insist it is not, so I guess I lost you. I just do not know what to tell you then. Too bad. You could have learned something neat.:)
It's perfectly clear. There is a mistake in your thread that needs to be addressed, and you refuse to acknowledge it for some reason and keep insisting that I just "don't understand."
 
Michael Paler

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It's perfectly clear. There is a mistake in your thread that needs to be addressed, and you refuse to acknowledge it for some reason and keep insisting that I just "don't understand."

Dude, you are going insane over this for no reason. Here, is this better?

"Whenever an Ace flops, there is something you should be aware of; Absent of any flush or flush draws present (a “rainbow” board), if the other two cards are not one or two of the following: 6,7,8, or a 9; then there is always (TWO) a possible straight or straight draw(S) on the board! Think about that. Only those middle cards prevent this possibility. So any two cards that are held - 2,3,4,5 or K,Q,J,10 - makes any ace flop (TWO)a possible straight or straight draw(s) if there are no middle cards present."

I think that most people understand what I was saying, as I;
A) Cannot go back and change/add two words and two letters. The rest of the post cleared up what I was talking about enough to understand that. Well, for most people, anyway.
B) The jist of it was the same. Absent of middle cards, there are 2 totally different draws present. (DUH)
C) I made it even more clear in a later post:

"And the entire post concerns when you have an ace flop without 6,7,8,9. And when you do have two of those you are looking at one possible st8 draw, not two possible str8 draws." (you keep ignoring/missing the obvious)

So if you want to continue to just argue, repeat a post I made 7 times, go right ahead. I am not;You know that was what it meant. Especially after I later clarified it several times. If not, well, I do not think it needs to be said what that makes you look like you are doing, IMO.

Now, you have anything relevant to add to this discussion, or not? Thanks! ;)
 
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DaReKa

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You didn't clarify it at all. You just kept repeating that you said something that you didn't. And your amended statement is still wrong. The ONLY time you're looking at two possible straight draws on the flop is when an A comes with a card from the four high cards AND one from the four low.
 
Michael Paler

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You didn't clarify it at all. You just kept repeating that you said something that you didn't. And your amended statement is still wrong. The ONLY time you're looking at two possible straight draws on the flop is when an A comes with a card from the four high cards AND one from the four low (Lol, In other words, no middle cards, right? That is just what I posted, lol.).

Wow, this is just getting more bizarre, so I have to ask this, and no offense here; is english a second language to you? That could be where we are going wrong here, in the translation. That I can understand.
 
DaReKa

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Wow, this is just getting more bizarre, so I have to ask this, and no offense here; is english a second language to you? That could be where we are going wrong here, in the translation. That I can understand.
No. What you said is still wrong. If two low cards come or two high cards come on the flop with an ace, there are not two possible straight draws present.
 
vinnie

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The original post makes no logical sense to me. Any unpaired flop with an Ace on it either has a possible straight already or a straight can be made on the turn. The presence or lack of middle cards does not change this.

On top of that, while an A-3-J flop does have draws to both an Ace-high and a 5-high straight, it is a meaningless and useless observation. Your opponent can only hold one of those draws at a time, not both. On top of that, unless it's an extremely deep-stacked tournament, your opponent is very unlikely to be drawing towards a 5-high straight. I know I am certainly not too worried when the turn is a 4 on the above board.

What advice exists in this thread is either bad (e.g. encouraging players to worry unnecessarily about bizarre monster-under-the-bed hands) or trivially obvious. It's like making a thread about how you realized there are 52 cards in poker and pretending that this is an epiphany of strategic importance.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
Michael Paler

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Well, folks, rest assured, I am not just making this stuff up. Learned it from a pro and tried to pass it on here for the folks new to poker.

Some think they know better than people who make their living off this kind of stuff (multi-millions at that, no less) who are nice enough to pass on it in books and websites to us. Then they slam those of us trying to then pass that info on, again, assuming they "know best"; poker is just full of nuances many will never see beyond. This post speaks to one of those nuances.

You just cannot open a closed mind, so I will not try. If you are not close minded and have any questions, by all means ask me. Otherwise I will simply ignore the drive by posters and those who do not want to have a discussion, but rather argue at every opportunity.

Good luck at the tables!:thrasher:
 
Michael Paler

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I have a question: Which pro?

You do realize this post is for guys so new to poker that they might not know a st8 cannot beat a flush? And yet It's getting picked to death. It's a simple nuisance of the cards mentioned by Doyle Brunson as something to keep in mind, a neat little twist when you have a flop with or without middle cards. So I write a thread for newbies to get them/keep them interested in the site here and the game itself, so I put something out they might not realize.

And what have they learned? For Gods sake, stay away from making a post or starting a thread, some guys will drive you nuts. All the "pros" will slam you if you do not write a PHD level thesis and use Einsteinian equations that can be verified by a panel of experts and is fully understood by them and those "pros", and only by them; "yes, it is high noon, only do not dare call it daylight! It's from the sun so it is starlight!"

Come on. Get real. Let some new to poker folks absorb it and ask any questions they might have. I want them playing poker, don't you?
 
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lol a pro may have said something which you have inadvertantly misinterpreted

Lets just say a pro said "when deepstacked and you have 4 5s if the flop comes A 2 3 then you have the nuts, however if a jack and a 10 should fall be aware that you no longer have the nuts because K Q would take over as the nuts"

that could be possible, but there is no way in a million years that a pro has said "you have the nuts now but runner runner straight is possible so take pot control"

that would be like saying "when you get a flop if you flop a straight on a rainbow board then pot control it because they may have suited cards, and if the turn and river are clubs he could hit his flush and you no longer have the nuts"

not trying to be harsh but you have more chances of runner runner flush, then runner runner straight draws
 
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