The more I learn the worse I do?

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Beasty2k

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Followed some suggestions here to move down to minimum stakes, currently 2NL cash games, basically to learn and practice my skills. Am struggling to find use of my theoretical knowledge, which in itself is quite good now. I have read several books, scanned this and other forums for several hours on a daily basis for a few weeks and also played a few hours every day. On "test-hands" that are included often in books, I always pick the "right" answer and am confident.

What I question is, I seem to do worse the more I know and the more I use that knowledge. Let me give you an example of how my sessions normally start:

I always try to play TAG, at least initially, and let's say the first pot I play after 1-2 orbits is JJ in late position. I raise 3xbb pf and get one caller (to put things in perspective let's say he is loose passive, vpip at 50 or above, no 3b). Flop comes Q72 rainbow. He checks, I cb 3/4 pot and he calls. (should I not CB in these low stakes? Should I check instead to get a free card?)

Already here, I feel like I am behind. I know he is loose and his range is miles wide, but more often than not he will hold a mid or low pair - perhaps even a set. Am I just unlucky? He more often than not improves his hand on the turn and river, and I lose a fairly decent pot early on. Then I start grinding and win some pots here and there pf but it takes me forever to get back to break-even on the day.

What I mean is that even while playing very tight I seem to lose momentum when I see the flop, I rarely or never hit a set playing a high pair aggressively pf. AK (which I know is a drawing hand, not made) never helps me unless I take the pot down pf.

It's very frustrating at the time being, maybe I am overthinking things on these tiny stakes? I know it is the wrong way of thinking, but I was doing a lot better at higher stakes like 10NL and am tempted to move back up there.

Any input here would be very welcomed, and please use any hypothetical example hands if that helps illustrate what I may be doing wrong. Thanks gurus.
 
Arjonius

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Knowing more than your opponents is not the same as knowing when it's appropriate (and when it's not) to apply various bits and pieces of said knowledge. As a relatively common example, it's not the same c-betting a "fit or fold" opponent vs a calling station.
 
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stevertrmurray

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Knowledge can be a dangerous thing LOL!!! G.I. Joe had it right that knowing is half the battle!! Don't over think things!!
 
bz54321

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So when you bet pre-flop with AK your opponents fold and you get the blinds. However your opponents have no idea what you had they just had nothing.

Okay lets say you have 72o would this hand still have won in the above situation? Yes

So what made your opponents fold, it was not the good hand you were looking at it was just good timing against the correct opponents. Take what makes them fold and grind with it like you do when you are down and have to grind back up.

AK is a good hand dont let your opponents know you have a good hand. When you get a good hand limp in or call dont bet. Let them feel safe if it hits you win and if it misses you fold and lose less.

good luck hope this helps
 
pocketehs

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So when you bet pre-flop with AK your opponents fold and you get the blinds. However your opponents have no idea what you had they just had nothing.

Okay lets say you have 72o would this hand still have won in the above situation? Yes

So what made your opponents fold, it was not the good hand you were looking at it was just good timing against the correct opponents. Take what makes them fold and grind with it like you do when you are down and have to grind back up.

AK is a good hand dont let your opponents know you have a good hand. When you get a good hand limp in or call dont bet. Let them feel safe if it hits you win and if it misses you fold and lose less.

good luck hope this helps

I personally disagree with the bolded above. At 2nl you want to get max value from your big hands vs those villians who just think your trying to get them to fold and dont believe you have it or they just have a worse hand.

Yes there are going to be times where you have TPTK and villain flops a set but thats poker and more often than not he if have worse and we will stack him.

My advice - play in position, play tight and not with margin hands (until you feel comfortable playign them in position) and value the **** out of the villain when you hit it big. Dont try to slow play!

Best of luck
 
bz54321

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pocketehs "I personally disagree with the bolded above. At 2nl you want to get max value from your big hands vs those villians who just think your trying to get them to fold and dont believe you have it or they just have a worse hand."

But isn't this what he is saying he is doing already and its not working?

My idea could very well fail also probably best to mix it up and try lots of different things until you find your flow.

Limping could be wrong here because it is NL maybe you should try fixed limit then limping would be okay because the real money is on the turn and river bets.
 
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pocketehs

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But isn't this what he is saying he is doing already and its not working?


.

yeah maybe but it depends what his definition of playing tight is. when i first started at 2nl i thought tight was like 20/17 and playing like any broadway cards from any position. When I hit TP on the flop with like KJ I was pumped to GII. I was profitable for the first 2k or so hands and then just dumped so hard from what I thought were 'coolers' or poor play from villain.

Now I just adjusted a lot tighter to like 14/12 and have made consistent improvements at 2nl.
 
youregoodmate

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So when you bet pre-flop with AK your opponents fold and you get the blinds. However your opponents have no idea what you had they just had nothing.

Okay lets say you have 72o would this hand still have won in the above situation? Yes

So what made your opponents fold, it was not the good hand you were looking at it was just good timing against the correct opponents. Take what makes them fold and grind with it like you do when you are down and have to grind back up.

AK is a good hand dont let your opponents know you have a good hand. When you get a good hand limp in or call dont bet. Let them feel safe if it hits you win and if it misses you fold and lose less.

good luck hope this helps

This is completely the wrong way to look at it. Never open limp pre flop.
 
jordanbillie

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pocketehs "I personally disagree with the bolded above. At 2nl you want to get max value from your big hands vs those villians who just think your trying to get them to fold and dont believe you have it or they just have a worse hand."

But isn't this what he is saying he is doing already and its not working?

My idea could very well fail also probably best to mix it up and try lots of different things until you find your flow.

Limping could be wrong here because it is NL maybe you should try fixed limit then limping would be okay because the real money is on the turn and river bets.


This is the reason why poker will always be profitable.
 
bz54321

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youregoodmate = Why?

Never is a long time. You never open limp pre-flop?

jordanbillie = Thats a constructive critique thanks i learned a lot from your comment.
 
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deeshark420

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IM with all those who never limp

I'm with those who never limp.
All you will find doing this most of the time is a nasty beat because you let the guy with nothing play,those insane crap cards,for free.If there is no gamble its not poker.I will say higher limits better card players but there are still a few nuts even there.I would say when you see one just leave till later but im one who has lost alot of money to the villians or so called calling stations.gambling is what it is how much can you afford to lose to those kinda players once you catch on their style of play.
goodluck to you and keep reading it does help.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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So when you bet pre-flop with AK your opponents fold and you get the blinds. However your opponents have no idea what you had they just had nothing.

Okay lets say you have 72o would this hand still have won in the above situation? Yes

So what made your opponents fold, it was not the good hand you were looking at it was just good timing against the correct opponents. Take what makes them fold and grind with it like you do when you are down and have to grind back up.

AK is a good hand dont let your opponents know you have a good hand. When you get a good hand limp in or call dont bet. Let them feel safe if it hits you win and if it misses you fold and lose less.

good luck hope this helps

this guy has 27 posts -.-

kids, don't limp AK ever. :goodnight
 
ovitoo

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AK is a good hand dont let your opponents know you have a good hand. When you get a good hand limp in or call dont bet. Let them feel safe if it hits you win and if it misses you fold and lose less.

Its been said already but I just want to reiterate. This is way off and quite the opposite of what you should be doing at 2nl.

I always try to play TAG, at least initially, and let's say the first pot I play after 1-2 orbits is JJ in late position. I raise 3xbb pf and get one caller (to put things in perspective let's say he is loose passive, vpip at 50 or above, no 3b). Flop comes Q72 rainbow. He checks, I cb 3/4 pot and he calls. (should I not CB in these low stakes? Should I check instead to get a free card?)

I like your example of a tough spot so I'm gonna comment.

Basically, you are correct to cbet here. Checking to "take a free card" wouldn't make sense bc it's pretty unlikely the free card will be a 2 outer if you are behind. You already have a hand here so a cbet is necessary. A bad player may c/r a Q which will let you ditch it. And if you get a call on your cbet I'd just try and check it down and fold to a bet in most cases (vil dep). Say the flop was coordinated (flush draw), assuming the turn and river brick (no flush, no A or K) in most cases I'd be looking to call around 1/2 pot imo. This is assuming you have little to no info on villain. GL!

edit: Not sure why I didn't notice, but you put vil. stats. Personally a player with a vpip >50 is going to get my money if he has the Q here just about anytime there's one over to my pp and no flush/str8 possibilities. Assuming he doesnt 3b for the first time.
 
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ovitoo

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youregoodmate = Why?

Never is a long time. You never open limp pre-flop?


jordanbillie = Thats a constructive critique thanks i learned a lot from your comment.

ummm....NO.


If you are an Omaha player, be sure to ditch those habits in NLHE
 
kidkvno1

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I personally disagree with the bolded above. At 2nl you want to get max value from your big hands vs those villians who just think your trying to get them to fold and dont believe you have it or they just have a worse hand.

Yes there are going to be times where you have TPTK and villain flops a set but thats poker and more often than not he if have worse and we will stack him.

My advice - play in position, play tight and not with margin hands (until you feel comfortable playign them in position) and value the **** out of the villain when you hit it big. Dont try to slow play!

Best of luck
This.
bz54321
Don't limp into pots, we raise to find out were we stand preflop.
I would rather take the blinds then lose my money to a weak hand.
.02 lost in the BB .01 lost in the SB .02 or more lost due to limping in with AK. Over the long run we may just be even or running in the red.
Unless you have stats to back up what you're saying.
 
frozensprx

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yeah his advice to limp and try to trap with AK is bad advice...since you already know the opponent calls too much, then you should make a big pre flop raise that you know he will call then you win a bigger pot. In the other instances when you limp and your AK luckily holds up to the showdown, the pot will be way too small.
 
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kids, don't limp AK ever. :goodnight

Depends what the table is like or where you are playing
At some of the ipoker sites look at the average pot. At a maniacs table or where one of the players has had a couple of bad beats and is on tilt I'd rather limp and take a chance that they shove their $2 into the middle with rag ace or KJo rather than raise and pick up the 3c. (only my 2cents lol):)
 
bz54321

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I am learning.

With AK it seems like any pair can beat you. I know what he means by feeling behind after the flop. Its also harder for me to let go when i have invested heavily in a hand.

ME = AK
Vill = 87

Flop = Q82


photo sharing sites

I can see the need to raise pre-flop in order to cut down the field but if everyone folds to you on the button it can only server to push bad hands out of it. It seems to me like limping is a good way to improve post-flop play. And what about pot control.

Okay begin saying i am wrong with one liners and no explanation.
 
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rhombus

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I am learning.

With AK it seems like any pair can beat you. I know what he means by feeling behind after the flop. Its also harder for me to let go when i have invested heavily in a hand.

ME = AK
Vill = 87

Flop = Q82


photo sharing sites

I can see the need to raise pre-flop in order to cut down the field but if everyone folds to you on the button it can only server to push bad hands out of it. It seems to me like limping is a good way to improve post-flop play.

Okay begin saying i am wrong with one liners and no explanation.
OK to limp with AK just dont stack off when the flop is K72 rainbow, at tournaments you see alot of pros min raising because they are very good post flop.
I dont see anything wrong limping as long as you understand postflop or want to improve post flop play. GL:D
 
JCgrind

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okay.

YOU ARE WRONG.

open-limping any hand is retarded. every hand can be beat, but chances are you have the best hand when dealt AK. thats why you raise. sure you might just steal the blinds, but thats by no means your objective.

so cliffs;
-build pots preflop with the likely best hand.
-learn to fold when you dont flop anything
-every hand plays better vs less villains, so raise when youre opening
-even if villain super likely to open shove over your limp, these villains are just as likely to open jam over a 3bb open as they are a limp, so still just open raise pre
 
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9/10 it is wrong. I was just refering to the dynamics situation when a maniac is raising and reraisng every hand
 
JCgrind

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wasnt talking to you but anyway..

if maniac is going nuts, then good, raise AK. and when he reraises you get it in. ez game?
 
ovitoo

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Depends what the table is like or where you are playing
At some of the ipoker sites look at the average pot. At a maniacs table or where one of the players has had a couple of bad beats and is on tilt I'd rather limp and take a chance that they shove their $2 into the middle with rag ace or KJo rather than raise and pick up the 3c. (only my 2cents lol):)

No it doesn't.

The reason you aren't open limping is bc it's impossible to range your opponents, let alone the blinds. And the example you gave is wrong. You're limping for what? To get a player on tilt to do what you should have done? In which case you're probably still flipping with a slight advantage.

If you still think we are all wrong, then have fun losing big pots with TPTK.

"AK will usually win a small pot preflop or lose a large pot post-flop" -some smart guy

I am learning.

With AK it seems like any pair can beat you. I know what he means by feeling behind after the flop. Its also harder for me to let go when i have invested heavily in a hand.

ME = AK
Vill = 87

Flop = Q82


photo sharing sites

I can see the need to raise pre-flop in order to cut down the field but if everyone folds to you on the button it can only server to push bad hands out of it. It seems to me like limping is a good way to improve post-flop play. And what about pot control.

Okay begin saying i am wrong with one liners and no explanation.

See above.

Also, pot control usually refers to post-flop play or limping behind; not open limping.

9/10 it is wrong. I was just refering to the dynamics situation when a maniac is raising and reraisng every hand

Usually if something is only correct 1/10x; we try not to bring it up when ppl are trying to learn. (I also think that 1/100 would be more accurate)
 
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bz54321

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"AK will usually win a small pot preflop or lose a large pot post-flop" -some smart guy

This is interesting and kind of makes me think its a two sided coin.

One side you raise and everyone folds great you won with AK.
Side two you raise and get a couple of callers and lose a lot post-flop. Not great.


But ya limping will always have the second result of going to post flop.

I Like these,
we raise to find out were we stand preflop.
learn to fold when you dont flop anything



It seems like a lot of the time i open raise get called and then have to make a tougher choice when i am raised into on the flop.
 
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ovitoo

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In other words:

Don't get a woody when you're dealt AK. Play it how you're supposed to (w/o any tricks) bc it's usually the best hand pre. And get used to folding when you brick.
 
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