Micro stakes - Did I make the correct decision pre flop?

Ok people, I've got a hand that I played on pokerstars just recently, I just would like to know if I played it correctly pre-flop, obviously as you will be able to see I would have won the hand, but that's not what I'm asking. Basically, I folded pocket Kings before the flop, but from the action that came before and after I made my decision I got the impression that there was somebody with AA.

I'm not a great player, but I honestly think Ive made some improvement to my game in the last month, just occasionally I go on runs of making bad decisions and playing to many tables at once.

Any advice or constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks and good luck to everybody.

Table 'Emita IV' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: otokas ($1.25 in chips)
Seat 2: gandalfxxx ($2.34 in chips)
Seat 3: Sinikov76 ($2.74 in chips)
Seat 4: dimondim83 ($3.17 in chips)
Seat 5: Qsto ($1.87 in chips)
Seat 6: paddi112 ($1.11 in chips)
Seat 7: babubabu88 ($2.58 in chips)
Seat 8: Mickl84 ($1.16 in chips)
Seat 9: raiyo ($1.42 in chips)
raiyo: posts small blind $0.01
otokas: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mickl84 [Ks Kh]
gandalfxxx: folds
Sinikov76: folds
dimondim83: folds
Qsto: raises $0.02 to $0.04
paddi112: folds
babubabu88: raises $0.06 to $0.10
Mickl84: calls $0.10
raiyo: folds
otokas: raises $0.10 to $0.20
Qsto: folds
babubabu88: raises $0.40 to $0.60
Mickl84: folds
otokas: raises $0.65 to $1.25 and is all-in
babubabu88: calls $0.65
*** FLOP *** [4c Kc 8c]
*** TURN *** [4c Kc 8c] 3♣
*** RIVER *** [4c Kc 8c 3c] 6♦
*** SHOW DOWN ***
otokas: shows [Qh Qd] (a pair of Queens)
babubabu88: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
babubabu88 collected $2.52 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2.65 | Rake $0.13
Board [4c Kc 8c 3c 6d]
Seat 1: otokas (big blind) showed [Qh Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 2: gandalfxxx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Sinikov76 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: dimondim83 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Qsto folded before Flop
Seat 6: paddi112 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: babubabu88 showed [As Ad] and won ($2.52) with a pair of Aces
Seat 8: Mickl84 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 9: raiyo (small blind) folded before Flop

No. You have just slightly more than 50bb. You flatted a 3bet with KK. You failed to get your 1/2 stack in with KK.
Honestly I can't find 1 thing you did correctly other than having your $$s at Stars instead of FTP.

OK Cheers. I'll take that on board.
What should I have done differently?

Started with 100bb and not folded KK preflop at 2nl.

Thanks, that's very helpful.

WVHillbilly said:

can't find 1 thing you did correctly other than having your $$s at Stars instead of FTP.

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Actually lol'd at this, WV made a funny!

Seriously OP, its been said already but i'll repeat it anyways b/c its the 2nd rule of 2nl club, the first rule being to buyin full and auto top up at all times, never fold KK pre at 2nl!!

So dont follow any bankroll management at 2nl then?

That depends on what is your BR. If your BR is big enough, you'll BI for 100BB easy.

Regarding the hand, I'm pretty sure that if that K didn't hit the flop you would think you'd have made a good fold, right?

well yeah because the dude had AA

Mickl84 said:

So dont follow any bankroll management at 2nl then?

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Deposit more

If you cant buy in for 100bb you dont have a BR anyway.

What if he had AK, AQ, AJ, Qxs? At 2NL that's pretty common. In a MW pot in 2NL where there's a reraising pissing contest, it is very very common that someone has QQ+ but another person has something like Axs, KQs, AKo etc. The trick is to know who you are playing against. Are the guys maniacs? Nits? Good players? Bad players?

I kinda agree with your idea that "someone had AA" because there was a lot of reraising... but if you find yourself in this situation again, fold only if you know that the players in it are tightish.

I have met AA quite a few times and lost almost all of them. But with KK I also met QQ, AQ and AK many more times. Getting it in with KK and finding AA is just something that happens. Most of the times, that is not what you will find against the common 2NL player. Take notes of what the players are shoving with and calling shoves with.

Mickl84 said:

well yeah because the dude had AA

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So he couldn't have QQ or AK or JJ or any other hand except AA?

Seriously dont fold KK preflop.. EVER. You would need thousands and thousands of hands on someone to establish that their 3bet and 4bet range was so tight that KK was an underdog.

Dont look at this as you making the correct decision, folding here is you making the wrong decision and just getting lucky

RVladimiro said:

I kinda agree with your idea that "someone had AA" because there was a lot of reraising... but if you find yourself in this situation again, fold only if you know that the players in it are tightish.

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If you ever end up with enough hands on a player to correctly fold KK preflop at $2NL QUIT POKER because you would have played hundreds of thousands of hands and still not moved up.

There is no situation where it is correct to make this fold at these stakes.

Its all very well thinking a raise and a reraise etc must be AA but the other guy didnt have AA did he? He was raising too.

Mickl84 said:

well yeah because the dude had AA

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No he had a range that certainly included AA but wasn't limited to it. Learn that and this thread will have been worthwhile.

Stu_Ungar said:

If you ever end up with enough hands on a player to correctly fold KK preflop at $2NL QUIT POKER because you would have played hundreds of thousands of hands and still not moved up.

There is no situation where it is correct to make this fold at these stakes.

Its all very well thinking a raise and a reraise etc must be AA but the other guy didnt have AA did he? He was raising too.

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You are absolutely right. I don't think I have more than 1K hands on the player I've seen the most at 2NL and even the tightest of those will have a 3bet PF range of at least QQ+.

Advising to quit poker for not moving up is a tad nonsense though...

OK folks, so I'm faced with a similar situation again, I have pocket Kings again(I also bought in for about 200bb's), and am faced with 2 raisers that have raised before it gets around to me, so I re-raise them(How much should a re-raise generally be?), and the person before me shoves all his stack in, I call and he turns A/10 o/s over and my kings hold out.

Have a look, did I play it better?

PokerStars Game #63945873963: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2011/06/30 1:50:09 WET [2011/06/29 20:50:09 ET]
Table 'Anneliese III' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: PEPEYEAH ($3.23 in chips)
Seat 2: madaraitachi ($1.88 in chips)
Seat 3: barn dave ($3.84 in chips)
Seat 4: danver13 ($3.50 in chips)
Seat 5: arbuus ($4.45 in chips)
Seat 6: PoetOfthePkr ($0.93 in chips)
Seat 7: Hi itsonlyme ($1.13 in chips)
Seat 8: deco3000 ($2.97 in chips)
Seat 9: Mickl84 ($3.97 in chips)
barn dave: posts small blind $0.01
danver13: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mickl84 [Kc Kh]
arbuus: folds
PoetOfthePkr: raises $0.04 to $0.06
Hi itsonlyme: raises $0.10 to $0.16
deco3000: folds
Mickl84: raises $0.18 to $0.34
PEPEYEAH: folds
madaraitachi: folds
barn dave: folds
danver13: folds
PoetOfthePkr: folds
Hi itsonlyme: raises $0.79 to $1.13 and is all-in
Mickl84: calls $0.79
*** FLOP *** [4c 6h 2d]
*** TURN *** [4c 6h 2d] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [4c 6h 2d 8d] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hi itsonlyme: shows [Ts Ad] (high card Ace)
Mickl84: shows [Kc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
Mickl84 collected $2.24 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2.35 | Rake $0.11
Board [4c 6h 2d 8d 9s]
Seat 1: PEPEYEAH folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: madaraitachi (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: barn dave (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: danver13 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: arbuus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: PoetOfthePkr folded before Flop
Seat 7: Hi itsonlyme showed [Ts Ad] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 8: deco3000 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Mickl84 showed [Kc Kh] and won ($2.24) with a pair of Kings

Looks good, especially considering their stack sizes.

RVladimiro said:

Advising to quit poker for not moving up is a tad nonsense though...

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If, after 100K+ hands you are still at 2NL.. Its not going to happen.

(the guy in the last hand stacks off preflop with ATo after being raised and reraised!.. they are just giving money away so seriously if after 100K+ hands you still havent moved up to 5NL you probably never will.. Im just being honest. The stack off with ATo isnt unusual for these stakes is it?)

Stu_Ungar said:

So he couldn't have QQ or AK or JJ or any other hand except AA?

Seriously dont fold KK preflop.. EVER. You would need thousands and thousands of hands on someone to establish that their 3bet and 4bet range was so tight that KK was an underdog.

Dont look at this as you making the correct decision, folding here is you making the wrong decision and just getting lucky

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look at the results man he had AA, kk was an easy fold there!

No Stu, it isn't. Like I mentioned in my first post in 2NL they stack with much worse. I've seen shoves with 22, KQs and so on, being my personal favorite Q2s.

My point is, imagine my initial $20 will be there with ups and downs for years and years... if I'm having fun, even if I'm not moving up, why should I quit? If I had to put $20 to play every month, I would because of the pleasure I take from it. Maybe I'll be a fish all my life, maybe I'll never move up.

You should be happy if fish of 2NL stay, especially the happy ones.

To the OP, i hate to sound like a douche but I probably wouldnt buyin for 200bb either at the minute if I were you, the stacks deeper and decisions are harder to make, because your losing 2 bi's instead of 1 when you make one of those big stack size mistakes, which we do when learning, as you and most of us here are.

Just stick to 100bb stack sizes for now, if you double up and theres people at the table who cover you then either a) move table (this is what I do as I'm not comfortable playing deep) or b) avoid big hands with the other big stacks if you have to stick around b/c theres a big fish on the table (b doesn't really apply to 2nl fwiw as everyones a fish so chances of another table being worse are reduced, but one for the future)

orangepeeleo said:

To the OP, i hate to sound like a douche but I probably wouldnt buyin for 200bb either at the minute if I were you, the stacks deeper and decisions are harder to make, because your losing 2 bi's instead of 1 when you make one of those big stack size mistakes, which we do when learning, as you and most of us here are.

Just stick to 100bb stack sizes for now, if you double up and theres people at the table who cover you then either a) move table (this is what I do as I'm not comfortable playing deep) or b) avoid big hands with the other big stacks if you have to stick around b/c theres a big fish on the table (b doesn't really apply to 2nl fwiw as everyones a fish so chances of another table being worse are reduced, but one for the future)

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Yeah, I agree with this advice. Learn to play 100bb poker 1st. You're game clearly has a ways to go before you should be thinking about deep play.

Not a good play, u shoudnt have folded KK preflop, he could have many other hands rather than AA, and indeed there are so many fishes in NL2 ..

RVladimiro said:

No Stu, it isn't. Like I mentioned in my first post in 2NL they stack with much worse. I've seen shoves with 22, KQs and so on, being my personal favorite Q2s.

My point is, imagine my initial $20 will be there with ups and downs for years and years... if I'm having fun, even if I'm not moving up, why should I quit? If I had to put $20 to play every month, I would because of the pleasure I take from it. Maybe I'll be a fish all my life, maybe I'll never move up.

You should be happy if fish of 2NL stay, especially the happy ones.

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If I took up playing the guitar and after 6 months of daily practice I couldnt even play a scale, I would quit. Not because Im a quitter but because after that amount of time it becomes clear that Im just not cut out to play the guitar and there must be a ton of other things I could do instead that I would have more success at.

Its the same with poker. If you cant beat 2nl after 100K hands, you cant play poker. Now if you could be happy doing something that you had absolutely no aptitude for, then fine, but I just see that as a huge waste of your time when there are other avenues in life for you to explore.

Now I would go as far as to say, if you could, really, happily be playing 2nl and never beating it, then you will never beat it. Its almost impossible to be disciplined at anything if you arent really all that fussed by your own mistakes. If you arent bothered when you make mistakes then there is no internal feedback mechanism driving you forward. You are content and therefore have no reason to change.

If there is nothing driving you forward you will not go forward. Runners dont get faster and faster because they run often, they get faster because they go out with the mindset that they want to beat their last time.

So in my case, if I was not beating 2NL after 100k hands I would not be beating it despite numerous attempts to change what was going wrong. So at some point I would have to face the truth and if the truth is I couldnt swim faster then a bunch of paraplegics, its time to get out of the pool and try something new.

Fold pre, I don't see him doing this with anything except AA. At least minraise the 3bet so you can be sure he has the bullets, then the fold is even easier.