Micro PLO hi challenge

Dear all,

My usual game is 25NL or 50NL, depending on my mood. In fact, I prefer Omaha 8/b (either 6-max PL or full ring limit, don't care for 6-max limit) but unfortunately it is often hard to find action.

After some half hearted attempts at learning PLO hi I have now worked my way into Jeff Hwang's "big play" book, which is written with full ring games in mind but should prove valuable for microstakes 6-max as well.

As I like setting goals, my aim is to play 6-max PLO10 exclusively for at least 25.000 hands, starting with a single table and perhaps adding one more table as time goes by. To counter tilt as a result of high variance I maintain a strict 2 buy-in stop loss limit per day. (Indeed, I am not in a hurry.)

I'm not sure what is customary on Cardschat, but I invite others who like to learn PLO hi to post their results as well, so maybe we can discuss. If this thread is best placed or absorbed elsewhere, please feel free to move.

Best wishes,

MG.

Being this is a challenge, expect to find it elsewhere, soon.

GL, I may drop in on occasion. What site do you normally play?

Thank you.

Normally I play on Full Tilt, though I also visit Stars on occasion to find Omaha 8/b games.

I hope you are familiar with the rake and the consequences of the rake on your win rate at those stakes.

Isn't it supposed to be worse in PLO because one is supposed to play more hands in PLO compared to Hold'em? (By the way, I find it really hard to loosen up.) Would you believe the game is still beatable at a reasonable rate?

Come to think of it, the same phenomenon occurs in PLO8, perhaps even more so because pre-flop equities run even closer. And PLO8 $0.05-$0.10 is certainly beatable.

Martingale said:

Isn't it supposed to be worse in PLO because one is supposed to play more hands in PLO compared to Hold'em? (By the way, I find it really hard to loosen up.) Would you believe the game is still beatable at a reasonable rate?

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This is interesting I was under the impression that you should be even more tight in PLO then in Holdem.

I like PLO a lot looking forward to seeing how it goes for you.

Good Luck.

As far as results go doing much better in PLO tourny than in the cash games. But I only tried HU PLO for 5$ a pop as far as cash games go.

Thank you!

Well, from what I read I understood that one should loosen up, but only in position. It's probably still bad play to call raises with marginal hands from the blinds etc. On the other hand, when on the button in a six-max game I think it should be possible to profitably play hands with danglers, middle gaps, mere big pairs and so on.

I'm more of a nit myself and don't fare too well in tournaments, usually get blinded out

Cool look forward to swapping some hands. I will post my last hand from the 5$ PLO HU cash game tonight. I got it in good but they caught there draw. The rake was a total joke. By the time we were done the house had scooped well over 3$. But it was fun getting my feet wet in HU cash.

well what do you think about two pair on a flop with two of the same suits?

ME KdAd9c4d
VIL 9hQsJsJh

blinds .2/.5

Dealer ME raise .10
VIL raise .30
ME call .20

flop 8cKh4h

VIL bets .45
ME raise 1.95
VIL 6.49
ME all-in 2.92

turn 3h
river 2c

Bovada I dont know how to get my hand exported so there you go.

On the flop I would be a bit afraid of him having top set, since he 3-bet you pre-flop. Was that his usual style?

On the other hand, Cardplayer's odds calculator says you are close to a 55% favorite, so you are getting it in correctly if you think he might be over-agressing this rather dry flop with a flush draw, which is what he is indeed doing.

Just a disclaimer: I have never played heads-up PLO hi and played very little PLO hi in general, so take my comments with a spoon of salt.

I played a few hands today. After being violated for my stack by a runner runner flush against my top set (money went in on the rainbow flop), I was fortunate to find myself on the good end of what I thought was a freeroll situation on fourth street. It turned out a little different, but still nice.

Full Tilt - $0.10 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 174.8 BB
Hero (SB): 100 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 99.7 BB
MP: 125.3 BB
CO: 89.9 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q♣ K♦ Q♠ A♣

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, BB calls 3 BB, UTG calls 3 BB

Flop: (12 BB, 3 players) T♣ 8♣ J♦
Hero bets 12 BB, fold, UTG calls 12 BB

Turn: (36 BB, 2 players) 9♦
Hero bets 36 BB, UTG calls 36 BB

River: (108 BB, 2 players) 2♠
Hero bets 48 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 47.7 BB and is all-in

Hero shows Q♣ K♦ Q♠ A♣ (Straight, King High) (Pre 72%, Flop 52%, Turn 78%)
UTG mucks A♠ J♥ 8♠ 8♦ (Three of a Kind, Eights) (Pre 28%, Flop 48%, Turn 23%)
Hero wins 189.9 BB

Martingale said:

On the flop I would be a bit afraid of him having top set, since he 3-bet you pre-flop. Was that his usual style?

On the other hand, Cardplayer's odds calculator says you are close to a 55% favorite, so you are getting it in correctly if you think he might be over-agressing this rather dry flop with a flush draw, which is what he is indeed doing.

Just a disclaimer: I have never played heads-up PLO hi and played very little PLO hi in general, so take my comments with a spoon of salt.

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Yep I considered the set but decided they did not have it because I had two of the cards matched. It would have been nice if he had a pair of Aces but it turned out to be the flush draw. This player just could not miss with the flush draws. We had been at it for a while so it was getting pretty aggressive at this point.

I was intending to fold after the flop but I improved to a point were I figured my hand could hold.


You were way ahead with the hand you posted. I have been folding my flop sets on the turn if there is aggression and I have not boated. This game is so draw heavy, I should have tried to get to the turn cheap then fold when the flush came. But time was running out because of the rake and I think they would have applied pressure on any flop.

Connected double suited hands are always fun to play( or single suited in your case). With your hand I would start off thinking why is that queen not a diamond. Nice take down with the turned straight.

I was wondering what your opinions are on bet sizing. I saw that in your hand you min-raised your button, but you raised the pot on the flop.

Hwang's advice is to always bet and raise the pot, but this is written with multi-way pots and a full ring table in mind. (Those tables seem almost extinct, except on pokerstars.) So far I decided to stick with pot-sized bets, but I can imagine that in heads up pots (which occur more often on a six-max table) pot-sized c-betting on dry flops may be overkill. On the other hand, we don't want our bet sizing to be indicative of our hand strength.

By the way, I indeed think that discussing the game like this can be very motivating and useful. If others want to join in, please feel free.

My thinking in pot limit is to get the pot up some but not to much pre-flop. Then if the flop comes and I want to chase the other player can pot and I can flat. Or if I hit the flop hard I can pot and it maybe enough to get them off there hand or make them committed.

I like to raise some pre-flop because it sucks to get to the river and not have enough in the pot to allow for a good raise. Having the nuts on the river but only being able to put in 5x the big blind crushes my soul.

The down side is you are going along killing the pot and the other player is just flatting. Then a scare card comes that could possibly have turned things around for the chaser. All the sudden the other player is pot betting into a large pot. These folds are frustrating.


I am interested on your thinking about chasing the turn and river from a flop all-in. In the hand you posted if the other player had re-potted with his set. Do you more often gamble/chase if its all in and you get two more cards. Obviously with both flush and straight draws I would call an all-in bet on the flop. I guess I am asking if you like having the hand that connected to the flop or the hand that has good chase potential.

bz54321 said:

The down side is you are going along killing the pot and the other player is just flatting. Then a scare card comes that could possibly have turned things around for the chaser. All the sudden the other player is pot betting into a large pot. These folds are frustrating.

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As little as I have played, I think this is one of the issues that is at the heart of PLO hi. It's such a post-flop game and scare cards on later streets often present bluffing opportunities. At the moment I have accepted to be bluffed because I believe for the stakes I'm playing players showing strength more often than not have the goods.

I believe your point also illustrates why a multi-way hand is so important. If you bet your straight and the flush comes, what do you do? If you have the nut flush draw, this is not a problem. Similarly with top set versus top set with the nut flush draw. However, thinking like this makes me quite a bit of a nit, at least for the time being.

I am interested on your thinking about chasing the turn and river from a flop all-in. In the hand you posted if the other player had re-potted with his set. Do you more often gamble/chase if its all in and you get two more cards. Obviously with both flush and straight draws I would call an all-in bet on the flop.

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Regarding the hand that I posted, it's a good question. For simplicity let us disregard the big blind. Had villain raised me, I would have put him on (1) the nut straight, possibly with a flush draw or (2) top set again possibly with a flush draw. Incidentally, over 49 hands I have VP = 38, PR = 2, AF = 3. 0/ 2.0 / 0.0 which does not seem too relevant here.

Case (1): In a worst case scenario (for us) he could have Q9cKcA for the nut straight with a nine-card broadway redraw and a flush draw (which is no good for him, but blocks two of my outs). Then he is a slight favorite at almost 53%. I would not fear this too much since I hold two queens.

Case (2): A worst case scenario would be JcJKcQ for top set with a flush draw and an open-ended nut straight draw. With this he is a clear favorite at almost 61%.

Even then I would still have opted to get the money in on the flop. I'm out of position so it does not really help to call and re-evaluate on the turn. All in all, I think that against a relatively unknown opponent the combination of the flop and my hand calls for stacking off if he had raised.

I guess I am asking if you like having the hand that connected to the flop or the hand that has good chase potential.

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Ideally a combination, like top set with a flush redraw or a straight with a flush redraw. Did I tell you I'm too nitty?

Good stuff. Dont know my stats because I am playing on Bovada. I see what people mean when they say anon tables are bad. They are bad if you want to share your info.

But on the other hand when I tried the free 30-days I found my self changing my play to try and manipulate the numbers the software was coming up with for me.

Any how I am the complete opposite of a nit so maybe you can help pull me more to the nit side.

That's tough, I wouldn't like to play against anons, particularly heads up. Are all the US-friendly sites like that nowadays?

By the way, I bought Pokertracker when I started out but recently came across this:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/fpdb/

(It's free software, this is not an advertisement.) It takes a bit of tweaking but seems quite functional. Might be an idea if you find yourself at a non-anonymous table, or just for review purposes.

Never slowplay in PLO, that is my motto , never try to get cute, or suck more money out of someone by acting weak when you are not. just don't do it ... ever. it is a big mistake. (I guess the one exception is when you have the absolute nuts and you can't be outdrawn, but that is pretty rare, and even then slowplaying may not be the best move)

4 cent PLO just now on Sportsbook ...... The way this guy played the hand against me is Exhibit A of how never to play PLO.

backoffmychips is sitting out.
XJohnHolmesX Posts SB 0.02
10after10 Posts BB 0.04
Merckx Folds
bustNUTSonU Raised to 0.10
MisterLongFace Calls 0.10
XJohnHolmesX Folds
10after10 Folds
bustNUTSonU Checks
MisterLongFace Checks
bustNUTSonU Checks
MisterLongFace Checks
bustNUTSonU Bets 0.26
MisterLongFace Raised to 0.52
bustNUTSonU Calls 0.26
MisterLongFace Shows Ah,6d,5h,Qd
bustNUTSonU Mucks
MisterLongFace Won 1.24 from Pot 1 with Full House - Fives over Sixes

Yes, this seems pretty bad. If I were villain I would have potted it on the flop and turn. He really let you draw at a full house for free.

One of the very few situations where I can image slowplaying is if you have position on an opponent who only raises with AAxx preflop and the flop comes with trips, you make quads, he makes the underfull and he is prone to potting it on every street, so you can be sure to get your stack in by the river.

MisterLongFace - I agree its great when they let you check it to the river so you can catch up. I only played like 5 hands last night. Really had no time to play but figured I would burn 25 cents. And some times I think that rabbit card thing on bovada is really trying to screw with me. But this guy was checking it along I had jj33 and pot bet for .50 on the turn so I fold and Bovada shows me a rabbit 3 on the river. Bleh.

this is a hand last night from Bovada. this one had me real pissed off and I had to stop playin for a while and take a break. I realize people hit the gut draws from time to time, it was just more the way they played it, the hand they were reraising me with preflop and the all in on the flop which was almost a pure bluff. I snap called his all in on the flop, not because I had a strong hand, i didn't, but because I was paying attention to his play. When the cards were turned over i was happy to see I had him dominated and it took me a moment to realize he had hit a gutshot str8 draw when the chips went to him.

I agree this was a bad beat, you were almost 3:1 to win the hand.

However, without being in the position for any critisism, I don't know whether I would have chosen this spot to call off my stack. It's PLO and even the biggest aggro idiot can easily have your TP/TK hand beat with any four cards.

Martingale said:

That's tough, I wouldn't like to play against anons, particularly heads up. Are all the US-friendly sites like that nowadays?

By the way, I bought Pokertracker when I started out but recently came across this:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/fpdb/

(It's free software, this is not an advertisement.) It takes a bit of tweaking but seems quite functional. Might be an idea if you find yourself at a non-anonymous table, or just for review purposes.

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Thanks I am going to try this out tonight on the league game.

Only Bovada seems to be anon.