OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I'm not really aiming towards either, just take the opportunities as they come
What did you decide on in the end? FR or 6max? And how's it going so far?
haha joker
and I still havent got a roll yet, atm I'm a uni student, and I'm waiting on my grant.. they owe me a grand at the moment and I get more in january.. so I'm waiting for that to actually start my roll.
I'm thinking FR, easier to multitable and fish at these levels have no concept of position so it should be easier to take their money in the long run.
Still planning on working on tightening up, will probably be my biggest leak haha.
:willy:
P
PotluckXXI
Visionary
Silver Level
Poker is constant flux, don't worry about what to do in what position and look at a statistical chart. Measure your villains, look at their stacks, find your spots. Got a weak loose player calling in early position and a reg raising in MP, drop the hammer in CO IF you have reads on their play. Observe, observe, observe; constant evaluating villains, ask yourself questions and base play on results of those questions.
mrmonkey
Visionary
Silver Level
When first starting out in the micros with less than 100,000 hands to go by, don't aim for either. Just aim for making the right decision in every hand, improving your game, and forget about the monetary results.
If you focus on your winrate too much at the beginning (or ever, really), you will probably end up like this guy: [old link~tb]
If you focus on your winrate too much at the beginning (or ever, really), you will probably end up like this guy: [old link~tb]
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blueskies
Legend
Loyaler
If you're playing at the lowest levels, don't otherthink and overplay. Straight forward ABC works fine. Don't go crazy with a pair of aces and 6 kicker convincing yourself that the other guy "must" be just trying to push you around.
Keep the pot small with mediocre hands and play aggressively when you have a strong hand.
Patience is very important in poker. All it takes to double up is one hand.
And don't worry about what percentage you should be playing and cbetting and all of that stuff. Play tight aggressive.
As you get more experience, you can start adjusting to opponents. But in the beginning, if there is an aggro guy who rarely ever folds on your immediate left, switch tables. Plenty of passive players around to exploit.
Keep the pot small with mediocre hands and play aggressively when you have a strong hand.
Patience is very important in poker. All it takes to double up is one hand.
And don't worry about what percentage you should be playing and cbetting and all of that stuff. Play tight aggressive.
As you get more experience, you can start adjusting to opponents. But in the beginning, if there is an aggro guy who rarely ever folds on your immediate left, switch tables. Plenty of passive players around to exploit.
OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Yeah I do/and will adjust, just wondering whether to aim to get stacks in or consistently take down a series of small pots. I do try not to be results oriented, but I do want to be in the black in the long run lol.
Overbets vs calling stations? Btw, what are the typical stats of a calling station? I'm going to try out PT3 when I start and maybe buy a HUD when I'm high enough in limits..
LOL, that guy. Guess if you can't handle the swings you shouldn't be playing poker.. and lol at the guy limp calling multi-way with KK. Fish of the day
What should I be looking to stack with, sets and better? Is TPTK plausible at 5/10nl? Since people tend to jam with TPSK.. because if I fold in that situation then that makes me bluffable in their eyes and they might adjust, if not slightly?
Yeah thats another problem of mine, game selection. Do I aim to get the loose passive tables that have like 5000 people to every flop, or the tight passive tables where I can just abuse nits blinds.
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mrmonkey
Visionary
Silver Level
LOL, that guy. Guess if you can't handle the swings you shouldn't be playing poker.. and lol at the guy limp calling multi-way with KK. Fish of the day
Well, fx was a good guy who I think had too much going on outside of poker to be able to keep his poker play objective. I wouldn't mock others until you've experienced the wrong end of a 20 buy-in swing, as unless you've experienced it you really don't know how you would react. Most don't do so well with it.
The reason why I linked you there was because fx concerned himself too much over his winrate, imo. Given typical variance, even over a million hands or so your winrate could fluctuate a fair amount (+/- 3bb/100) with no actual reflection on your true ability.
Getting back to your questions:
You should be doing both, depending on the situation of course. To aim for one and ignoring the other means you are not maximizing your opportunities and profits.
Calling stations have large gaps between their VPIP and PFR, and low aggression frequency. At FR, numbers like 35/10 or so often indicate a loose passive calling station.
The PT3 60-day trial is a very good way to start. When I had a bankroll of $120 or so I made a move from 2nl to 5nl and started my PT3 trial period. 60 days later, my trial ran out and I was playing 10nl on a $500 bankroll. It was easy to purchase the micro version of PT3 at that point and still be plenty rolled for the levels I was at.
It of course depends on the situation, but generally at 10nl against unknowns, I'm happy to stack with top two or better given a dry-ish or drawing board. Getting 100bb stacks or more in with TPTK is usually a recipe for a depleted bankroll, particularly at FR. This is of course just in general against unknowns -- obviously things change once you have some history with your opponents. Depending on who you are playing, TPTK is sometimes instafold and sometimes instashove.
Let them bluff. Aggressive donkeyfish bluffing against my made nut hand makes me happy.
Just play and see what you are more comfortable with. Both types can be profitable. Nitty tables are generally lower per-hand profit, but with less variance. Loose tables are obviously going to be swingier, but generally have better profit potentials in the micros since there are so many spewy fish.
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mrmonkey
Visionary
Silver Level
blueskies
Legend
Loyaler
Your threshold for stacking off is dependent on your opponent. What I've found at micros (4NL) is that there really aren't that much playing back at you. If they shove, they usually have it UNLESS they are the terrible ones or you've played incredibly nitty. The ones who will shove with a pair of Ks and a T kicker usually have already telegraphed their aggro nature before that so you can plan accordingly.
Beware if the villain calls two barrels from you then suddenly goes all in on the river. Usually that's a slowplayed monster at the micros.
Loose tables are the easiest to win since you can control the size the pot so you can win big when you have it and lose little when you lose.
Arjonius
Legend
Silver Level
Don't concern yourself with win rate until you have enough hands under your belt to have a reasonable idea of what your rate actually is. How many this takes can vary with your style, your opponents' styles, FR vs 6max, etc. as well as the normal swings of running good and bad. So just try to make the best decisions you can while all of these regress toward the mean.
And I'll second what was said about playing ABC. There's no need to get fancy. Micro players typically have an "I play my cards" mentality. It is possible to outplay them quite often. However, you tend to lose more when you try and it doesn't work than you win when it does work, so in terms of profitability, the breakeven is above half the time, possibly well above. It's not easy to achieve this, especially as a relative beginner.
As for loose vs passive tables, loose ones are more profitable if you're an above-average player, but you can also lose more if you're not. Passive tables tend to be easier to play, and while they can be less profitable, can also be lower variance. Ideally, you should aim to be capable of beating both, but starting where you feel less discomfort is probably a good idea.
And I'll second what was said about playing ABC. There's no need to get fancy. Micro players typically have an "I play my cards" mentality. It is possible to outplay them quite often. However, you tend to lose more when you try and it doesn't work than you win when it does work, so in terms of profitability, the breakeven is above half the time, possibly well above. It's not easy to achieve this, especially as a relative beginner.
As for loose vs passive tables, loose ones are more profitable if you're an above-average player, but you can also lose more if you're not. Passive tables tend to be easier to play, and while they can be less profitable, can also be lower variance. Ideally, you should aim to be capable of beating both, but starting where you feel less discomfort is probably a good idea.
OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Was just about to write before you commented AJ, sorry I took so long (uni book review - Ace on the river )
Mr Monkey, that's a good rule actually, I'm deffo gonna stick to that when I start. At what level do I NEED a HUD though? And can you explain sklanksy bucks? I've heard of it before but honestly I never researched it. Is it comparable to Galfonds G-bucks?
And last question, should I value bet a lot bigger at micros? Since they shouldn't really adjust.. would it be +ev? or is the overbet only ever used for polarising.
) Mr Monkey, that's a good rule actually, I'm deffo gonna stick to that when I start. At what level do I NEED a HUD though? And can you explain sklanksy bucks? I've heard of it before but honestly I never researched it. Is it comparable to Galfonds G-bucks?
And last question, should I value bet a lot bigger at micros? Since they shouldn't really adjust.. would it be +ev? or is the overbet only ever used for polarising.
micromachine
Legend
Silver Level
Probably not until you get to 10NL.
BUT having said that, I got one when I was playing 2NL (now I'm playing 5NL) and it's really useful and helped me improve a lot. It's only a one off $45 for the microstakes version, which is good up to and including 25NL. Well worth it imo.
mrmonkey
Visionary
Silver Level
Well, I think around 25nl at Full Tilt before it was shutdown was sort of the cutoff where I began feeling naked without a HUD on, multitabling or not. Part of that could be though that I had grown so accustomed to it. I think if you are keeping simultaneous tables at 4 or under and taking very detailed notes you can actually get by and be playing profitable poker without a HUD at almost any level 50nl or under. However, having a HUD still can help you optimize your play and gain a bit of an edge, as well as being much easier to review your history. Every edge you can get in poker is important.
I had to look into G-Bucks, but yes, Sklansky Bucks are the basis for the concept of G-Bucks. G-Bucks takes Sklansky Bucks a bit further and applies it to hand ranges rather than just the actual hands turned over. G-Bucks is a great concept, and reviewing your hands this way will certainly make you a better player. For anyone interested:
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/'G-Bucks'-Conceptualizing-Money-Matters.-Phil-Galfond-985.htm
I don't think there are specific rules for value betting more or less -- you need to figure out what works against specific opponents and maximize what you can get from them. That said, in general at the micros and against a complete unknown you can tend to assume they are bad more often than not and will be more willing to stay in a hand with increasingly bad odds to do so. So yes, you need to still analyze your opponents when you can, but in general you can get more value from large value bets and overbets in the micros.
Shwiggler
Rock Star
Silver Level
This. Spend a lot of your time reviewing and studying while playing the micros. Putting it the study time will help you move up so that you can play at levels where you can actually make a profit.