The main reason you must not slow play AA or KK

tagece

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The main reason you must not slow play AA or KK

I know this is obvious for some people, but I did it a lot when I started playing poker, so maybe this could be useful for the beginners.

Except in exceptional occasions when you are really sure that you will make a villain do a mistake with a trap, you must avoid slow playing AA or KK.
One can say “But if I bet too much everyone will fold”. Yes, it’s a risk. But you won the hand anyways, and you several times you will induce a player with a good hand to call or shove.

Or worst, “but with more players in the hand, I will win a huge pot with my monster hand.”
The problem with this line of thought is that if you have two or more players against you, your hand will not be a monster anymore.
Using the Cardschat Odds Calculator, you can see this very clear.

https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-calculator.php

Let’s say you are dealt with :ks4: :kh4: in the UTG. You make an aggressive raise and one player with :ad4: :qd4: calls or shoves, and everybody else folds. Even against a good hand like that, you have the best odds, with 67,42%

349a1f4b4c0bf51501bda5c28459e614.png


But if you decide to bet only 2 BBs, just to hide your hand, and this attract another player with :jc4: :10c4:, for instance? Now you have 51,95% of winning, virtually a coin flip. Not so confortable now…


2b3c1f0c7a4072a0367c69134459ecf3.png



And let's make it even worst. Let’s imagine that a maniac player in the BB decides to defend his blinds with :7h4: :2s4: . Now we have four players in the action, and your hand has only 42,75%, and now the chances are against you, and it's more possible that you will in fact lose the hand.


43cf5362d625cc417628e1ff828514db.png



The right conclusion is that you can win good pots slow playing monster hands occasionally, but unless you have a really good plan to do it, this is a bad and unprofitable strategy in the long term.
 
MattRyder

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So true!

One point of discussion though. You seem to be equating AA with KK in your lead-in. Looking at the possibilities in terms of "odds" rather than "percentages", AA is a 7:1 favorite over AQs HU while KK is only 2:1 over AQs. That's a huge difference.

This affects how strongly you play your "monster" pre-flop. In keeping with your fine argument, I definitely won't slow-play KK pre-flop, but I'd prefer not to play for stacks with them in some situations. (How many times have we all seen KK go up against AA in an all-in situation?) On the other hand, I'm almost always hoping to get stacks in the middle pre-flop with AA.

The odds favoring KK (over AQs) increase significantly with a dry non-Ace flop, but flip to 10:1 against with an Ace on the flop.
 
korneel

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You have a good point there
I only slowplay aces when there are max 2 other people in play.
 
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fooltiltguy

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Great pointers there Tagece and Matt! I rarely find a situation where I can slow play AA or KK. I always raise 3.5x from EP, 2x from LP. You don't want to slow play these unless you are sure you have the right spot for it. Even then your hand still may not hold up! Be aggressive with them but know when to let go of them also!
 
tagece

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So true!

One point of discussion though. You seem to be equating AA with KK in your lead-in. Looking at the possibilities in terms of "odds" rather than "percentages", AA is a 7:1 favorite over AQs HU while KK is only 2:1 over AQs. That's a huge difference.

This affects how strongly you play your "monster" pre-flop. In keeping with your fine argument, I definitely won't slow-play KK pre-flop, but I'd prefer not to play for stacks with them in some situations. (How many times have we all seen KK go up against AA in an all-in situation?) On the other hand, I'm almost always hoping to get stacks in the middle pre-flop with AA.

The odds favoring KK (over AQs) increase significantly with a dry non-Ace flop, but flip to 10:1 against with an Ace on the flop.

I agree with you, Matt, but I took just one exemple between almost infinite possibilities. If you change KK for AA in same situation the numbers will be better, but your odds still decrease from 86,5 to 55%. This the main fact of my argument here.
 
lcid86

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I agree, but did see a guy slow play aces at a 1-2 table in the MGM. Was able to build a huge pot when 2 other players flopped big hands (a set and 2 pair). ended up with 3 all ins and no one expected to see his set of aces.
 
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rusty98

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So true!

One point of discussion though. You seem to be equating AA with KK in your lead-in. Looking at the possibilities in terms of "odds" rather than "percentages", AA is a 7:1 favorite over AQs HU while KK is only 2:1 over AQs. That's a huge difference.

This affects how strongly you play your "monster" pre-flop. In keeping with your fine argument, I definitely won't slow-play KK pre-flop, but I'd prefer not to play for stacks with them in some situations. (How many times have we all seen KK go up against AA in an all-in situation?) On the other hand, I'm almost always hoping to get stacks in the middle pre-flop with AA.

The odds favoring KK (over AQs) increase significantly with a dry non-Ace flop, but flip to 10:1 against with an Ace on the flop.
I never play AA , kk or any strong hand slow because you can lose it on river and that can spoil your mood and you can lose more money after that. But about losing KK to AA is fine that is poker If you lose some You win some.But I dont want to lose my strong hand because of my wrong play.
 
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karl coakley

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Great post. The closest I get to slow playing AA or KK is if its late position and I can smooth call a raise with someone that is really aggressive. A re-raise will certainly announce your hand if you don't re-raise often.
 
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Radrobe

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I was in a 1/2 live game today. Looked down at QQ from CO and reraised from 11 to 30. 2 callers. Flop was all undercards with a flush and straight draw out there. Raised 30. Two all ins for 100 and 230. I folded. Turns out one guy had a set, one guy had KK. I couldn't put the guy on KK because he didn't try to get it in Preflop.

Slow playing PF conceals your hand and makes it so they can't put you on a premium hand. Definitely a high risk play.
 
gjwalk

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Good post, as it illustrates what can happen if you let too many players into a hand when you've got AA or KK. Your odds of winning are greatest when you're headsup against one other player. I've seen too many players limping with this hand and then crying when their bullets get cracked.
 
CharlieWest

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Great post and great follow up comments - thanks folks. I find them to be the most difficult hands to play so it's nice to read all of these real life perspectives.
 
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CallmeFloppy

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Great post. I know this topic has been discussed multiple times but the images really help to drive home the point. Well done.
 
dbchristy

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RIGHT!! I never slowplay AA<KK QQ..LOL
 
Zorba

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I have said it many times that it is better to win the blinds than get sucked out on.

:top:
 
CriesuaID

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Great tip, we often play these hands and believe that when we lose it is a big bad beat, when in fact we are less favorite than we think.
 
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deeshark420

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Yes AA isnt as easy to play out all the time
I had AA early position make more than a min raise get called by ace 8 in the mid late position and Jack ten in late co.WAS BEAT BY BOTH PLAYERS.flop- 2 8 8 j 10 THAT TO ME UNLUCKY and people that call with hands they take chances with.oh well get it in good win big or lose big im not throwing those hands in just yet.
 
antonis32123

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I can't slowplay AA or KK , cause most of the times I did it , have failed , with me losing many chips or all stack . But I know that it's good when HU or on a later stage of a tournament with high blinds , against one or two , it's good sometimes try to slowplay , if the board helps you . Hope to learn in the future and play it better . KK never slowplay , always play it with a raise or min raise .
 
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DrakeM

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I truly love calculations like that.The reason behind it is clear: The more players are in the hand when you slowplay, the more players may make a set or two pair or whatever else beats you.

So if you truly slowplay big hands, you definitely should have a plan
 
edc1

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i agee that its not a good play to slow places aces to much ,ive done it myself one to many times and got burned by it,both live and online-the more ppl in an all-in pot while your holding a-a the more likey that a-a wont hold up -i think the optimum number of ppl might be 2-3 ppl at best holding aces-but they can be very profitable if slow played at the right time and right situation
 
CadoARAJ

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Excellent vision and I usually made this that you said, just because exactly for several losses when have more people involved and you emptionally do not want to fold an AA.

I only not make a monster raise when has a maniac on the tabble that I know he/she will make a cartain rais or all in just after me.
 
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alex_Romejz

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with kk or AA always play agressive reise or re-reise the flop i always go all-in.
 
thetick33

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you got to be able to lay down hands so slow playing trickery works at times... dont tell me the percentages will play my gut:)
 
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ivannaarg

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:)You have a good point there
I only slowplay aces when there are max 2 other people in play.
 
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braveslice

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I didn’t see the more correct answer in this topic, which is: against villain’s all in range you are dominating, thus getting it all in is the most profitable play you can ever hope in poker. Big number times big number is well even bigger number.

That said, getting it all in pre with KK against real nit is just break even at best if he is early position and you are not supported by ‘crazy enough’ stats. Otherwise he has something like 6 AA, 2 AK, 1 KK, 1 QQ in his range giving you 37% equity.

Edit: and before you say he can have JJ, it's included to QQ.
 
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TeUnit

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you really want to maximize the value, and it is very stack size dependent- there is a big difference between limping AA with 5 blinds vs limping AA with 300 blinds
 
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