Limping In with decent hole cards

M

mojorising

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I am new to Poker. Just learning (Holdem).

I read that it is bad tactics to limp in pre-flop.

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/hand-guide/preflop/

You should either raise or fold based on your hole cards.

But if the big blind (minimum bet to see the flop) is small why not wait and see the flop?

Also I read that raising pre-flop is to scare off other players so you increase your odds of winning.

But if your hole cards are good isn't it good if other players stay in so at least there will be more money in the pot if they all match the big blind?

Also is it not better to see the flop so you have better idea of how good your hole cards are in the flop context before betting big?
 
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freestocks

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More players more money. Yes. The chances of losing increase with more players. Hard to know where you're at with many opponents. Optimally, you have the best hand and single out the one with the second best hand.
 
Mini1380

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I like to get to the flop with only 2 and my self make 3 people. And then I like to loose another playing to make it heads up after the flop. As if you have too many people call and it's not raised pre flop you may hit a good hand but ur opponent may hitt a better hand and you won't suspect anything
 
vinnie

vinnie

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Another factor to consider is the fact that No-Limit betting is often sized in relation to the pot.

If 5 people limp, the pot on the flop is 5 big blinds. You have a smaller pot, and when you bet, you're likely going to be playing against the best of 4 other hands. It's going to be less likely you win. If only one person is calling, it is going to be hard to get all-in with reasonable bets. The final pot is likely to be 100-120 big blinds, if you get one caller all the way.

If you raise to 3.5xbb and get two callers, the pot is 10.5-12 big blinds. You have to beat half the number of hands, and the pot is more than twice as big. Which means the ending pot is going to be much larger. This makes a huge difference in No-limit games. This pot is likely to be 275-325 big blinds. It's almost three times as big and you're twice as likely to win it.

Edit: This is very simplified reasoning. But, raising pre-flop helps build bigger pots and makes you more likely to win the pot. You want to win bigger pots, and give up on small ones. You start doing that by building bigger pots when you want to play.
 
edc1

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2 biggest probs with limping in pre-flop
your letting everyone in hand see a cheap flop,you could even be letting person see cheap flop with a less than marginal hand crack your hand post flop

I think your losing value by not raising pre-flop
 
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mojorising

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^
^^
Thanks i can see the logic in that now. Just getting my head round the game theory aspects.

One other thing that puzzles me though is raising early on a very strong hand: Lets say you have a knockout hand like straight flush and there are 2 other players in the hand. You want to milk them for as much as possible so would you say it makes sense to raise in a few separate betting rounds than going all in at once and scaring them off?
 
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redriojf

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thank you for the topic. its helping me alot with improving my game
 
Amanda A

Amanda A

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I don't think it is always bad to call pre flop.There are some hands you want a lot of players in the pot because if they hit they can win big pots but they are unlikely to hit and you will probably have to let the hand go so you don't want to invest a lot pre flop.. More players gives you great pot odds to call with small pairs and suited connectors and hope the flop gives you a set or a flush or straight or strong draw. When there are more players you need a stronger hand to win so AA against a lot of players is most likely in trouble whereas 67 suited can have a lot of potential depending on the flop.
 
paulinhlt

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Are three situations that you can limp.
1. In smallblind, you complete if your hand is medium / poor
2. In the bigblind, you check if your hand is medium / poor
3. Last situation, if you have AA KK QQ and you want to make a trap for your opponent, which is not very advisable, because your AA can become useless post-flop playing against several opponents.

Therefore, whenever you have good hands, you increase, be sure to increase to keep other people in the pot that on the river you can make your hand very vulnerable. And remember that in poker the important thing is you earn little and never lose much.
 
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mojorising

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Thanks. Very useful input there.

I have noticed in light of what I have learned here that the robots I am playing on 247freepoker are not very good on strategy.

I think I will have to move on to real opponents to get a feel for the true psychology of the game.
 
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rushdaman

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The pre-flop raise does get alot of players out of the pot that are playing marginal hands, which would increase your % of winning the pot. I think limping with a monster hand can be smart and it also can be really dumb. It all depends on the context of the situation when your going to limp with a monster hand (AA AK KK AQ) I wouldnt limp all the time by any means but you have to mix it up a little bit or smart players will figure out that you only raise when you have a monster and they will avoid the hand and look to take your chips later on during the game. So yeah limping with a monster/good hand is something you can do to lure some fish into a pot without them thinking you have a monster hand. Mix it up and best of luck
 
vinnie

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Example, but not the only one:
Are three situations that you can limp.
1. In smallblind, you complete if your hand is medium / poor
2. In the bigblind, you check if your hand is medium / poor
3. Last situation, if you have AA KK QQ and you want to make a trap for your opponent, which is not very advisable, because your AA can become useless post-flop playing against several opponents.

Therefore, whenever you have good hands, you increase, be sure to increase to keep other people in the pot that on the river you can make your hand very vulnerable. And remember that in poker the important thing is you earn little and never lose much.

Any person telling you to adjust your betting size based on the strength of your hand, is telling you something that is going to hurt your game. At some stakes, it might be an exploitable strategy; that is, the other players are so bad that they aren't going to notice or adjust to you doing this. But, it very quickly becomes the case that this is not true. Even at stakes as low at 5c/10c and 10c/25c, you will likely find players who quickly recognize what you are doing. These players are less common, but some exist, at the lowest stakes.

The very last thing you should consider, when thinking about pre-flop bet sizing, is the strength of the hand you hold. If you are going to vary your sizing, which is something that you might not want to do until your game is stronger, you should be basing it on stack sizes, position, the players in the hand already and the ones most likely to enter the hand behind you, and the strength of the other players' ranges. Your hand has nothing to do with this. You might min-raise the button because there is a short-stack in the blinds who is likely to fold/3-bet. That way you can save money when he 3-bets and you still get money from the folds or when you have a hand that can call the 3-bet. You might raise more when one of the blinds is very loose and passive pre-flop, and they tend to fold too much when they miss the flop. You build a bigger pot that they are likely going to check/give-up on.

Never, ever, base your bet sizing on the strength of your hand. If you are very good, and are playing against other very good players, you may base your bet sizing on the strength of your range against their range on specific boards, but that is way beyond where you are at right now. First in, if you are going to play a hand, keep it the same size for all the hands you are going to bet.
 
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Two6JJ

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You deny the true value of your big hands by limping in with them.
 
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mojorising

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^^Thanks Vinnie

Small technical question which I have not been able to find the answer to

If you check or raise and then somebody to the left raises again then when it comes to your trun again can you raise them again?

So raising could theoretically go on forever until somebody runs out of money and goes all in?

Or is there a fixed number of times that the raising can go on in one particular round of betting such as pre-flop?

Thanks if anybody can clarify.
 
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theblizzardofoz

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I like to get to the flop with only 2 and my self make 3 people. And then I like to loose another playing to make it heads up after the flop. As if you have too many people call and it's not raised pre flop you may hit a good hand but ur opponent may hitt a better hand and you won't suspect anything

I get burned everytime..doesnt matter what i do
 
vinnie

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If you are playing limit poker, there is a cap to the number of raises. But, you are probably playing no limit.

In no limit, there is no maximum to the number of raises on a turn. If you both have deep enough stacks, you could each raise 100 times. As a pratical matter, the bet sizes increase so quickly that it is rare to get above 4 raises because someone will usually be all in.

Edit: There is an edge case where two players might have more money, but you won't be able to raise. That's when the last raiser after you went all in for less than a full raise. Here's a simple example.

Player A {$500} raises $5 to $7
Player B {$500} calls $7
Player C {$100} raises $20 to $27
Player A {$493} raises $50 to $77
Player B {$493} calls $70
Player C {$73} raises $23* all-in to $100 *(any amount less than the last raise of $50)

Player A can only call, even they they have more money and so does player B. It is because the last raise wasn't a full raise amount. A full raise means you increase the bet by at least the amount that it was increased by the previous raiser. If you raise from $10 to $25, then the bet went up $15 and the next person must make it $40 or more for it to be a legal raise. If that person has less than $40, they can go all-in, but it doesn't count as a raise.
 
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M

mojorising

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Thanks Vinnie.

Just to clarify say there are 3 players A B C

A is the dealer and folds
B bets 20
C raises to 40

B then matches the raise to 40

Does C then have the option of raising again (since the turn has to get back to the dealer before the flop) even though his raise has been matched by B?
 
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Fastone2

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Limping in is what I do at times. Depends on my cards and position at the table. And other factors...
If successful, and ya hit the cards ya need, you can make a good stack of chips.
 
vinnie

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Thanks Vinnie.

Just to clarify say there are 3 players A B C

A is the dealer and folds
B bets 20
C raises to 40

B then matches the raise to 40

Does C then have the option of raising again (since the turn has to get back to the dealer before the flop) even though his raise has been matched by B?
No, C can't raise again in this spot because the opponent matched (called) the bet and didn't raise again. If his opponent raised to 60, then he would have the option to raise again. When his opponent calls and there is no other action, then he can't raise.
 
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mojorising

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^Thanks

That makes sense now I think about it.

Would be a bit unfair if C got to raise after his bet was matched.

He could build the pot by drawing an opponent in with multiple small raises.
 
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