Limping in before the flop?

full tilt poker has a new poker academy wish some various challenges available on it. One of the challenges is setup by Chris Ferguson, and the challenge is to go 100 hands, without open limping (raise or fold if it has folded to you).

I am fairly new to poker, but is Chris trying to tell us that you should never limp in with a hand? It has to be good enough to warrant a bet of at least double the big blinds to play? What if you are in late position and you have a less than desirable hand, but figure the flop may improve it for you?

Also, if this is his advice, how come in both cash games and tournaments, I seem to be the only one not limping in? It seems that every other player on the table only ever calls the big blind and never raises pre flop? Is this simply because I am a noob and playing at the lowest limits, or do you find this at the higher limits as well?

It isn't that it is wrong to never limp in, but most people limp in with a lot of hand that shouldn't be touched.

There is the old motto, "If it's good enough to call, it's good enough to raise." Just think about that for a while, or google it, there have been a lot of discussions on it.

if everyone folds you win the hand. the more chances you give them to fold the better. if you limp then everyone allready in the hand doen't have the chance to fold, if you raise then you are giving them a chance to fold.

Phil Gordon has got the same philosophy that he only ever folds or raises. In actual fact when you watch either of these players in actual games they do not always stick to this thinking. I have watched both of them a lot and they do limp on occassions. I think what they are saying is correct, who am I to argue with them, but I also think that poker is a game where you need to think every hand differently depending on a whole lot of different factors.

It also depends on position. I never limp in early to middle position. And depending on how aggressive the blinds are, I might limp with marginal hands in late position.

Thanks for the feedback. Bit of a follow up question.

Being new to poker I am playing in the micro games. Do you see this same sort of behavior in the higher limits, or does it tend to be part of the "it's only 2cents" philosophy?

fergy05 said:

Thanks for the feedback. Bit of a follow up question.

Being new to poker I am playing in the micro games. Do you see this same sort of behavior in the higher limits, or does it tend to be part of the "it's only 2cents" philosophy?

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My regular game is NL with blinds of $50,000 and $100,000. It's the same kind of donkey play that you get at one and two cents.

depending on the play infront of you, if everyone limps in a tourney im gonna pt them on some kind of king queen ace 10 ace jack queen jack all high cards so i would feel good limping in a 67 and knowing i have lots of draws and live cards

You'll find that there's less limping as you get to higher stakes. If you want to see this for yourself, just go watch some play. It's really easy to see the difference the higher you go, so I'm not talking about watching like .50/1 Try $10/20 or higher.

Yirlastcall said:

depending on the play infront of you, if everyone limps in a tourney im gonna pt them on some kind of king queen ace 10 ace jack queen jack all high cards so i would feel good limping in a 67 and knowing i have lots of draws and live cards

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I think you are giving your opponents too much credit. In the lower stakes you are more likely to have people limping with connectors(suited and unsuited), Acex(suited or unsuited), Kxsuited, etc. And they will be almost certainly raising with any two face cards, especially if they are suited.

I think he is just trying to demonstrate that if you are not comfortable raising with a given hand than you probably should not be playing in the first place. When you enter a pot you usually want to take control of the hand. Obviously against a maniac, you would be well off to slow play a moster, but in most instances you want to be the aggressor. Just an interesting training style.

Point of the Tilt Challenges.

The Academy is designed to get you out of your shell.
Play in ways you wouldn't normally play.
Make you realize the value of certain playing styles and strategies.
While playing the challenges you will realize the profit that can be extracted from these techniques.

Strategies that when finished give you an arsenal of weapons against your opponents.


Just my thoughts.

I normally play as many hands as possible the first hour of a MTT when the blinds are low, this to catch people that don't really care if they are playing the game or not. Normally works, but once blinds have increased and 80% of donks are gone, then things tighten up a little.

i think this applies much more to cash games as I rarely limp in tourneys you have a limited supply of chips so I feel that is much different!

Caution!

Limping can lead to......losing a lot in an unraised pot!

depending on stack size. i will limp suited connectors, and small pocket pairs from late postion if the price is right, in the early levels of a tournament. i do think that its bad to open limp, but over limping is ok. you just have to know when to get away from the hand post flop.

never say never in this game. sometimes limping is the right play. but its very situational, and depends on alot of other factors in the game.

most of the time it is bad, and alot of players will go broke in an unraised pot.

glworden said:

My regular game is NL with blinds of $50,000 and $100,000. It's the same kind of donkey play that you get at one and two cents.

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Are you serious? I could save up for 15 years and still not have enough for one big blind. Are you a billionaire or playing for play money?

haha, I am surprised it took like 10 posts for anyone to say anything about that.

I think limping usually means, I just wanna see a flop and if you don't raise soemone else usually will, BUt if you have that marginal hand and you truly want to see the flop, if you can manage a small bet to maybe push two or three others out and get you up against a few less hands wouldn't you rather do that?..

It is a concept of aggressive poker. Aggressive poker is winning poker.

i registered at the academy but haven't started on it yet. i saw there were challenges and watched some of the training vedeos.

i also read fergusons fold or bet method.

the way i figure it these challenges are designed to make you attempt something different from your normal playing style. those who have the highest skills probably won't be participating in the academy. and after awhile you use these methods to improve your game.

the advantage of raising opposed to limping is always to eliminate those wanting to see a cheap flop. i notice more and more are wanting to see the flop. but don't necessarily want to be too vested in the pot.

the betting shows that you can be aggressive and there are players who avoid ag players unless they have a good hand, or some players want to be the aggresser and will fold.

when you limp and let everyone else limp you can't complain when you have a bad beat. you allowed everyone a chance at the hand you have a lesser clue to what they have. if you bet there is a better chance of weeding the lesser hands and knowing more about what your opp might have.

cheers

What you are in late position, with suited connectors, and then get raised 2xBB, is it good to just call the min-raise since you'll be able to be the last one to call since you're next to the raiser. In a Sitngo, that is, or a MTT. Is it good to just call the min-raise if given the chance?

How about in mid position, after you have limped in? Sometimes I like to limp with suited connectors, and often I get raised. Maybe I should try min-raising; maybe I'll be less likely to be re-raised, but that hand is not a strong hand to any degree pre-flop...

I hear a lot that suited connectors are good to "limp in with" when I am not short-stacked, but when I do limp in, I'm not sure what to do with it if someone raises etc.

Also, I like to limp with things like JQ suited and KQ suited etc. And then when they raise I have trouble putting it down :/ How good are they?

Its cause you are playing in the lower limits! trust me! The only reason
some people might want to do this would be because they are trying to
imitate either sammy farhars technique or that of gus handson. These are
two very unpredictable players and that can be a huge edge on the table,
but a person is only recomended to do this once they have a huge understanding
of the game, which 99.99999% of us dont have, and its not a exaggeration
but an understatement. If you should limp in, well i highly recomend that
you don't, cause as chris sais, its not the best of moves. There are a lot
of bad players out there or players that go on cards but are actually risking
their buyins, but thats just my advice.

im not a big fan of limpimg becasue you have the people who hit a crapy two pair that would be your pocket pair and theres nothing you can say becasue you let it happen so its best to either raise or fold jsut to get those crappy hands out of the hand.

The challenge/lesson should teach you to raise a hand.
Many players limp much too often!
The aggressive raise is a better way to play a hand most of the time!