Limping

OK, limping is the cardinal sin of so many players I post with here. I am reading Harrington on Holdem, have read Phill Gordens little green book, and watch a lot of instructional videos, just yesteday also from Phil Gordon. Harrington talks about limping to see a cheap flop, and Gordon as well. I play mainly SnG and MTT. SO if so many people here shout STOP LIMPING, is that an absolute, or are we speaking about the exception to the rule. Cause both above mentioned players recommend limping in certain situations that come up regularly. And while I do admit I was limping in all the wrong places and with the wrong hands, which I have really been working on correcting in my game, I still see places where it seems to be a viable play. Comments???

Limping can be the right play under certain circumstances depending on the table action, position and hole cards.

For instance limp/call a medium pp in mid position to set mine given the right odds.

To figure out whether you have the right odds is the crucial part where many beginners falter.

That's why the general advice is to not limp afaik.

I had trouble figuring this out for a good while as I would watch pros on t.v. limp time and time again. I don't remember where it was explained to me but it finally made sense when I learned all about post flop play. Top players are so much better than average with post flop play that they can take a look at a lot of flops and then assess where they are in a hand.

When you look at the standard advice (here and elsewhere) it usually says to use basic abc poker, (raise with good starting cards, fit or fold the flop etc...) at lower limits because a a more complex strategy simply isn't needed to win.

grafkarow said:

Limping can be the right play under certain circumstances depending on the table action, position and hole cards.

For instance limp/call a medium pp in mid position to set mine given the right odds.

To figure out whether you have the right odds is the crucial part where many beginners falter.

That's why the general advice is to not limp afaik.

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That would not be correct.

If you limp in MP then there are 2-3 limpers in the pot at most. However there are also there are 3-4 players left to act. Any one of these may raise you.

You would be better raising or folding because a raise might take the pot down now or would allow you to c-bet and take pots down on the flop.

over limping to setmine really only becomes an option from the button or from the blinds because the risk of being reraised is lower.

When you are raised, you get put in a difficult situation because you cannot be sure if you have implied odds. THe raise may be raising because he holds a strong hand, but equally he might be raising because so many have shown weakness. You will be OOP against an uncertain range, and your current odds are much lower than expected because of the threat of being raise preflop.

From the button onwards the situation changes.

Of course, upon reflection, the quality of the players that Gordon or Harrington are going to be playing with is certainly reflective of limping being a justifiable way to see the flop, as multi-player pots on the flop are much more limited than in the dollar donk-a-mats that I play in. It works well in position - as Stu said - but it only really allows me to see a cheap flop if the table has been playing real tight, which is the exception most of the time. I was just reading more of HoH and this occurred to me as I was reading and reflecting on a hand example with limping, and it became more clear that in his hand examples the players are not 1$ buy in players like me and my opponents mainly are. SO I guess I am answering my own question here, but please keep commenting, I am interested in what different takes on this are. And thanx for the feedback till now as well.

From my own experience at the lower stakes tourneys, if it's good enough to play, it's good enough to raise. People will call you with all kinds of weird crap, but you have to at least try to discourage the guy who calls with 47o because he thinks it's funny.

Its like anything in poker, you need to have a reasoning behind your actions.

In your previous thread you open limped AQ from early position (open limping means your first to call or act), and let yourself get involved in a multi-way pot.

If there are several limpers ahead, and you are in position with a small pair or suited connector with deep stacks then there are lots of reasons to limp. Generally you are looking to hit a set or better and take someone's full stack.

As a general rule of thumb open limping is bad, over limping in posn with deep stacks can be good. Just know your reasons for what you are doing.

relpraggy said:

From my own experience at the lower stakes tourneys, if it's good enough to play, it's good enough to raise. People will call you with all kinds of weird crap, but you have to at least try to discourage the guy who calls with 47o because he thinks it's funny.

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Huh? why? id want him to call me.. sounds like a slot machine paying off if you ask me...

as for limping.. ill generally limp behind limpers with hands that play really well post flop..not all the time though.. against opponants who seem to be bad players, or i think will make huge mistakes postflop.. and only when were deep stacked.. the implied odds arnt there otherwise..
if its folded to me id rather raise most of the time..

the only other time ill open limp is in SNG's, where the blind levels are low, ill open limp from early position or middle position with pairs to try and set mine.. once the blinds get higher ill rarely ever limp, unless im trying to get some action with a monster

Also remember that those books are more live game (specifically live tournament) focused. In live play limping, yes even occasionally open limping, can be fine (Honestly hard for me to write that). There just aren't as many aggressive players who will use position well by iso-raising you with a wide range. Online, though, the games are much more aggressive and you'll end up throwing your hand away to players isoing you too often for open limping to be profitable in most situations.

Stu_Ungar said:

That would not be correct.

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See - got it all wrong there - at least I learned something new.

WiZZiM said:

Huh? why? id want him to call me.. sounds like a slot machine paying off if you ask me...

as for limping.. ill generally limp behind limpers with hands that play really well post flop..not all the time though.. against opponants who seem to be bad players, or i think will make huge mistakes postflop.. and only when were deep stacked.. the implied odds arnt there otherwise..
if its folded to me id rather raise most of the time..

the only other time ill open limp is in SNG's, where the blind levels are low, ill open limp from early position or middle position with pairs to try and set mine.. once the blinds get higher ill rarely ever limp, unless im trying to get some action with a monster

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That's what I get for posting while I'm having my first cup of coffee. To elaborate (and probably overstate the obvious)- generally, if you have a hand that doesn't play well against multiple opponents, you want to raise. But, as mentioned above, there are good times to limp and trap given the right circumstances.

Under some circumstances, limping can be a good strategy. Especially at the beginning of a tourney when BBs are low. If it has to be folded, we still dont lose much.

Open limping when you have a monster hand is actually quite good if you have an average player at the table! The button will usually raise and you might even expect a call from the BB...That's when you step in and raise big or shove.
That way 1)either they fold and you win more and save yourself a coin flip, 2)either they call and you win much more...or you lose everything to a suck-out (which is less likely cuz we're probably talking about AA KK QQ...)

WiZZiM said:

Huh? why? id want him to call me.. sounds like a slot machine paying off if you ask me...

as for limping.. ill generally limp behind limpers with hands that play really well post flop..not all the time though.. against opponants who seem to be bad players, or i think will make huge mistakes postflop.. and only when were deep stacked.. the implied odds arnt there otherwise..
if its folded to me id rather raise most of the time..

the only other time ill open limp is in SNG's, where the blind levels are low, ill open limp from early position or middle position with pairs to try and set mine.. once the blinds get higher ill rarely ever limp, unless im trying to get some action with a monster

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Whew... Relieves me to hear you say this. I thought I would be getting the third degree from you for even daring to use the word LIMP again....

One reason not to limp. Any normal raise (3xbb) and I might still be in the hand to set mine. If I get any other flop (which is most of the time) I'm folding to any action so instead of possibly picking up 2.5bb he could have had more. Table was normal, not too loose or too tight imdo.

poker stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players - View hand 605727
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $16.65
BTN: $5.00
SB: $6.50
BB: $2.95
UTG: $9.05
UTG+1: $25.90
MP1: $5.00
MP2: $4.65

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with 2 ♣ 2 ♠
UTG calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: ($0.85) Q ♦ 2 ♥ 6 ♦ (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, BB folds, UTG raises to $8.80 all in, Hero calls $7.55

Turn: ($18.45) J ♥ (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($18.45) A ♣ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $18.45
Hero shows 2 ♣ 2 ♠ (three of a kind, Deuces)
UTG shows K ♥ K ♦ (a pair of Kings)
Hero wins $17.55
(Rake: $0.90)