Limp or raise?

  • Thread starter NoWuckingFurries
  • Start date
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
3,834
Awards
1
Chips
29
Sorry that this is such a basic question, but when I see a long row of limpers my urge to conform is so strong that I tend to limp, whereas in some situations I feel as if an aggressive bet is needed to clear out people that might suck out on me if they stay in the pot.

In the example shown in the screenshot, presumably a big raise is called for? Or maybe I should stop worrying about what cards I have and just concentrate on the players...
 

Attachments

  • CClimpORfold.JPG
    CClimpORfold.JPG
    55.3 KB · Views: 108
wrung24

wrung24

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Total posts
455
Chips
0
In a deepstack cash game, I would say just limp, hit your set, brick the turn and river and scoop, (or don't and fold to severe action)

In a tournie with such a small stack, it's quite borderline, I think either shove or limp, if you raise and get called, you are hoping for a set or small board, which isn't going to happen often.

If you raise and get 3bet, what are you going to do ?

With a shove I think you can pick up the money in the pot, the limpers don't have TT+, not sure how the players behind you will react but they will fold a lot.
 
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
3,834
Awards
1
Chips
29
Sorry I should have said that I'm a tourney player. Thanks for the input. :)
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
In a deepstack cash game, I would say just limp, hit your set, brick the turn and river and scoop, (or don't and fold to severe action)

In a tournie with such a small stack, it's quite borderline, I think either shove or limp, if you raise and get called, you are hoping for a set or small board, which isn't going to happen often.

If you raise and get 3bet, what are you going to do ?

With a shove I think you can pick up the money in the pot, the limpers don't have TT+, not sure how the players behind you will react but they will fold a lot.

In a deepstack cash game you need to raise 100% of the time. It's really really hard to win stacks in a limped pot, so start building preflop. Also it makes it a lot easier to win without hitting a set.

In the hand you post I probably just make it 300, call if shoved on. If called, shove any flop.
 
wrung24

wrung24

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Total posts
455
Chips
0
No that's fine I saw that just giving my cash player opinion.

I'm trying to get into tournament play as well, this is a situation I have trouble with some times. I mean 10-12BB it's a shove, and 20-24BB it's a limp or a raise, very difficult to know what to do in between.

I'm looking forward to having a good tournament player's opinion.

Edit : WVH : now that you say it yeah it's actually a definite raise in a cash game, too many players can also get us in trouble on a wet board
 
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
3,834
Awards
1
Chips
29
I mean 10-12BB it's a shove, and 20-24BB it's a limp or a raise, very difficult to know what to do in between.
Should I be thinking in terms of BB? I tend to think in terms of M, in the example given I had an M of 11 and I have it showing to the left of username in the HUD.
 
tomines

tomines

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Total posts
121
Chips
0
Limp man.. there's caller's beside you.. especially when people in the table tends to limp, it's difficult to judge..and the flop might not help you.. maybe raise when you get 10 10 s up ..goodluck
 
wrung24

wrung24

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Total posts
455
Chips
0
Should I be thinking in terms of BB? I tend to think in terms of M, in the example given I had an M of 11 and I have it showing to the left of username in the HUD.

Sorry I don't really know.

I understand M in theory (I think) but don't really apply it yet . But isn't that based on the opponents stack size ? Not too sure that is relevant here
 
72willpwnu

72willpwnu

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Total posts
12
Chips
0
In this hand you are getting the applied adds to limp and try to hit your set. You do not want to raise because you want to hit your set and get a bigger pay off from all the limpers.
I think in BB as this is the way I was thought. I think if M works for you use it. It is just like all the different HUDS it is what ever suits the player.
 
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
3,834
Awards
1
Chips
29
Maybe I am a bit too obsessed with M at the moment, but I am doing a Full Tilt Challenge involving M which has been stuck at 80% completed for over a week now, whereas all the other challenges I have completed in well under a day :p

I put M in a prominent position in my HUD because that's what I'm mainly using at the moment, rather than BBs.
 
tomines

tomines

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Total posts
121
Chips
0
you can actually raise also 3 times the blind...even though there's a set of limpers... Full tilt shuffling is really unpredictable.. anything can happen..
so do the standard reraise ..or maybe limp if you don't wanna take the risk and go for the sure win but small gain :D
 
B

budebuzz

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Total posts
237
Chips
0
I find what works for me is I limp and see if anyone else raises, if they do raise I try to judge on the raise and the person but if the raise is something like 3 - 5 x BB I will usually call as long as there are no re raises, but there again I have to judge the size and players in the pot, same if someone goes all in it tends to be a judgement call, if I think there are a few players with A x then I may call, also depending on my position and where the tournament is at is part of my decesion. so my answer is limp and see.
 
belerophon

belerophon

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Total posts
346
Chips
0
My belief is to raise here. Your going to have no idea what anyone has post flop if you just limp. You have good position and can make a play if you hit your set or c bet a strong board if callers check to you post flop.

Of course this is also dependent on what your table image is and how well you know the players and what ranges you have them on.
 
Worak

Worak

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Total posts
6,024
Chips
0
Raise 3bb+1bb for every limper - that's where the 300 suggested come from.

I agree with the call the preflop shove option (especially if from the ss).

I'm not sure whether I'd call a donk-shove from the sb/bb if the flop contains face cards and they cold called your preflop raise, though.

If I read your HUD stats properly you're sitting with a bunch of calling stations - you need to weed a few out before the flop.

Shoving isn't that bad either imo - being the 2nd shortstack opponents could be assuming that you're stealing here and call (with quite wide ranges).
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
I refuse to read the thread, but the answer is pretty much always raise.
 
I

iriechief

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 25, 2005
Total posts
109
Chips
0
Wired 9's never lose, Shove!! Just kidding, but German Virgins are very good to me!
 
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
3,834
Awards
1
Chips
29
I refuse to read the thread, but the answer is pretty much always raise.
If you're too lazy to read the whole thread, perhaps you could manage to look at the image in the OP before blessing us with your infinite wisdom. Not a lot to ask.
 
TheOne2Watch

TheOne2Watch

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Total posts
49
Chips
0
You have to raise in that position and represent a strong hand. You limp in and you are opening yourself up for a disaster
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
perhaps you could manage to look at the image in the OP
Guess what, I still think its a raise.

Edit:

Shat, this is learning poker so I'm not supposed to be an ass...

Typically when players limp preflop, they have speculative hands that require lots of money behind in order to be profitable. By raising, you accomplish several goals:

1) You screw up the SPR so that they cannot profitably play fit or fold on the flop.
2) You put in more money while ahead.
3) You set yourself up to have a very profitable c-bet.
4) Players will likely check to you on the flop, so when you want a free turn you often get one.

Run a filter in HEM and check out your win rate when you c-bet the flop in position against a limper. Its insane how high it is.

Also, when you limp a hand like 99, the types of hands others are limping usually have pretty good equity against a set (suited connectors, suited baby aces, ect.). So when you flop something like 953, the guy with 76s is actually putting you in a pretty RIO spot. You're going to win a small pot when he misses and get stacked when he hits on the turn. People are much less likely to stack off with top pair/over pair in a limped pot, and they're playing hands that don't often make top pair or over pairs. And that's generally the hand you're looking to stack off against when you have a set.

The moral of this story: punish limpers whenever possible.

Sorry for being a dick in my first couple of posts, forgot where I was posting.
 
Last edited:
T

ThunderPT

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Total posts
336
Chips
0
In the hand you post I probably just make it 300, call if shoved on. If called, shove any flop.

I agree. With a higher M I'd maybe limp and hope to hit a set, but at around 10 any playable hand is a raising hand.

I thought calling if shoved preflop could be trickier. We'd be getting around 2:1 odds so we'd be getting the odds to call against most people's ranges. But the Hero has a very tight image, not everyone would be thinking he was adjusting to his M, so could the villain be 3bet shoving with AJs, AQo or worse? Probably, but depends on the player. But even if he only raised with AA-TT, AK and AQs, the hero would still be getting even odds to call. The fold would only be correct against the tightest of players (someone who could only be shoving there with an overpair or AKs).
 
O

only_bridge

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Total posts
1,805
Chips
0
I would shove here. 20% increase on our stack if everyone folds.
Agressive play is more profitable than passive play.
The reason for this is simple. When you are the agressor you have fold equity and show down value. When you are the passive caller you have no fold equity.
 
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
3,834
Awards
1
Chips
29
I would shove here. 20% increase on our stack if everyone folds.
Agressive play is more profitable than passive play.
The reason for this is simple. When you are the agressor you have fold equity and show down value. When you are the passive caller you have no fold equity.
This confuses me - if you are all in, how can you have any sort of equity? Surely your fate is completely in the hands of the other players, and the cards...
 
kidkvno1

kidkvno1

Sarah's Pet
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Total posts
16,281
Awards
4
Chips
50
99 in the CO you can raise it even with limpers in it.
Limping is just bad in this spot, like it was said, we are giving them free cards to hit a higher card, or 2 pair.
The all in would only be if we are going to be short stacked by making the raise.
 
Top