Learning Poker: - How much time can take ?

PlayHunter

PlayHunter

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- How much time (hours of effective learning) can take to an average IQ 30 years old person which start from zero knowledge in poker to achieve a 10 big blinds win rate per hour playing two tables at once at 50NL ?

I am not new in gambling (neither in online gambling), I know what means variance and bankroll management, but I have VERY LOW (next to zero) knowledge about poker. Currently I am a very bad losing fish. (I am only able to win at fun money, lol)

OK, my learning materials are these books: "The Poker Mindset: Essential Attitudes for Poker Success by Taylor and Hilger" , "Poker Math made easy" and "Texas Holdem Secrets" and "Tournament Tactics" all by Roy Rounder, "The Theory of Poker" and "Small Stakes Holdem" - both by Slanky , "No Limit Heads Up by Moshman" and "Expert Strategies for No Limit Tournaments - all 3 volumes by Harrington and Robertie", plus a couple of simple but good articles. Besides Texas Holdem stuff I have "Pot Limit omaha poker - The Big Play Strategy" and "Advanced Pot Limit Omaha - all 3 volumes" all by Jeff Hwang. I also have Turbo Table Scan, Poker Traker 3 and Equilab, plus a few other supposed helpful software. OK, now back to where we was, currently I am a bad losing fish with a "ton" of paper which adds up to 1500+ (A4 format) pages for Texas Holdem and about 700+ pages for Limit Omaha Poker.

Now, I need advices from experts:

1. - With what books and in what order to start learning ?

2. - When to jump in and play at the tables ? (I will start at 10NL)

3. - I should start with Heads Up games, SNG`s, or cash games ?

4. - 6 or 9 player tables ? (from what I have read, 9 ring are usually filled with regular experts, and it`s easier to win at a 6 ring)

5. - Limit or no Limit ?

PS: Is Omaha more easy to learn and more profitable ? (from what I have read in a few articles, Omaha has a much lower variance, and it would be a very good thing for a starter, but are there enough players to play it ?)

PS2: - If this fits better to "Learning Poker" CardsChat section, please some Moderator to move it there. I posted here because in this thread seems to be the most traffic and I really need as many inputs as possible on this matter. Many thanks in advance to everyone !
 
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Blown01Cobra

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I vote ditch the books. That's just my opinion, but here's what I feel happens.
1.) You start out reading these books with zero knowledge of poker strategy and suddenly you find yourself trying to understand why three authors contradict theirselves or why an author uses a certain tactic in the first place when you really have no experience with that situation to begin with.
To be quite honest, I find the best way to learn (once you understand the basic rules) is to simply start playing some low stakes games - be forewarned No Limit, Fixed Limit, and Pot Limit games all play differently in how people strategize. You might think it's going to cost more money than you'd like, but the truth is that if you play smart bankroll management and just play a very tight game, there's no reason you'll go rushing through it and often it'll cost less than buying books, DVDs, or signing up for professional training. Even $25 deposit at penny stakes is going to help you a lot.

2.) Like I said, I think jump in right away, once you understand the rules. But don't go playing mid stakes until you grasp the concepts of low stakes. Sometimes higher stakes games allow you to do certain tactics, simply because people are more aware of their financial risks whereas at low stakes people might be a bit more liberal with their calls and raises; however, at higher stakes you'll be with higher competition (most likely) and so even if you feel you've got a good run going, it's only a matter of time before the sharks attack.

3.) Sit N Gos are probably the best bang for the buck. Heads up games have some specific strategies that tend to work, but if you play in Sit and Gos enough, you'll eventually end up heads up and slowly learn those concepts. Cash games might seem like a good way to learn, but you can usually get far more poker and far better odds of winning some decent cash in a Sit and Gos. For instance, at No Limit low limit ring games (cash games) you can easily find yourself facing calling a $1 or $2 even at $.02/.04 tables, and that can be gut wrenching calls when you know little amounts add up if continually make the wrong call. Compare that to a single $1 in that lets you start with several chips and can play for quite a while.

4.) The number of players generally plays a part more in card odds. The more players there are, the more likely another player has 'X' card and the more people you have to bluff. Pots get larger and you have more rounds where you don't have to play the blinds. It might be easier to win at 6 person table, but I think you'll get more learning experience from a 9 ring table where you'll get more poker for your money to learn.

5.) The games play differently strategy wise, so while the rules might be the same (with the exceptions of bets), you'll probably find yourself developing a different play style for each, so it doesn't really matter. The obvious thing is that the amount you can win and therefore lose in fixed limit games are limited, which is nice on one degree because it's less likely you'll be put in a situation where you have to make a tough all-in call on a great hand only to have the opponent hit a gutshot or river draw.

6.) Omaha isn't hard to learn, you just have to watch yourself because it's often easy to overlook things or misread hands if you play a lot of time at holdem. You have to use two cards in your hand, which often causes a lot of confusion. At least two and only two.
 
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Arjonius

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There's no pat formula for how quickly a person will learn, move up and win. It's not just about intelligence, which isn't a singular ability anyway. It includes a range of components, not all of which are equally applicable to poker. So for example, two people with equal IQs may differ in that one is more math-oriented, the other more spacial. And that's before we get into personality differences.
 
PlayHunter

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There's no pat formula for how quickly a person will learn, move up and win. It's not just about intelligence, which isn't a singular ability anyway. It includes a range of components, not all of which are equally applicable to poker. So for example, two people with equal IQs may differ in that one is more math-oriented, the other more spacial. And that's before we get into personality differences.

You are right Arjonius, maybe I should say average math skills, instead of average IQ, since poker is, a game of percents at the end of the day. But before applying for percents one needs to memorize the theory, which is that ABC poker. So what I meant to ask is how much time can take to learn the ABC theory of poker ?

From a few articles I have read I understand that knowing ABC theory of poker, one person can beat low stakes games. And I also read that 50NL is still low stakes, I am thinking that my goal (winning 10BB/hour at 50NL) is not too far ?

As a comparison to my math skills, I am a (very) good backgammon player, at one point I was even accused of bot usage by one site, and I have video proved them that I really do play and estimate the correct moves really that good! - But to achieve this level it took me about 6 years of almost daily play and reply analyze.

I am also a pretty successful heads up blackjack player - but I am certain that this is not due to the fact that my math skills are so good, but more to the fact that I choose to play only against very low skilled opponents. - And this is why I am thinking to start at poker with heads up game - After a little play with someone in a heads up cash table I will feel when I am able to easily beat that guy, I will feel when he bluffs me and I`ll riposte, and if I will feel that I have a hard time to play with my opponent because he is strong, I will simply sit out and try to find another table, while if there are more players at the table I don`t feel it that simple to read them and beat the weaker ones.. sometimes there is a weak player and a good player and me in the pot.. somehow I have to outplay the good player and that`s not easy for me.

But my main concern is not my math skills, learning capacity may be because I feel I am a quite slow learner. My main concern is that Poker is a game of BLUFF, and not a straightforward game with all the dates placed down to the eye. Combine this, with the fact that I am a not able to properly read players behaviors and that`s it !

I remember a pretty straightforward poker variant would be "Americana" where players are dealt 5 cards in hand and 4 are face up - I don`t know if this is still online ?

How I am trying to learn Poker is to play it like a fixed odds game: - when you have AQ you raise 3bb from any position (except when you are UTG and only raise 1bb) and call a 3bet of "x"% of the pot. If 3bet is higher than that, you fold. I assume that what I just wrote, is not an optimal strategy, but just for the example of a fixed odds game, it should be good I think. So I would try to mainly play the cards, and not the players, except when I see an obvious nit who only play A Class hands and when I am in late position and a near decent hand that allow me to try and steal the blinds. Just like I never have a read on anyone except the fishes and super nits.

I will also use table trackers software and only play at the tables where are at least 2 fishes. Is this approach good enough to allow me to win 10BB/hour at one table ?
 
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Blown01Cobra

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This is exactly why I wrote my post. I think you're looking at poker from the wrong perspective. Poker is a more complex and dynamic game than simply saying it is a game of bluff or a game of probabilities.

The fact is, a lot of new poker players believe that most poker players mostly bluff and so they attempt to pull bluffs off in entirely the wrong situations. A lot of new players attempt to bluff and they're successful for quite awhile, but what they don't realize is that a more skilled opponent is just waiting for the right opportunity to strike and call that bluff. Often, when a new players thinks they've found a weak opponent because they're just folding everything, they start to get a little bit of an ego - leading to their downfall.

Poker is not predominately a game of bluffing, but a game of knowing exactly when to bluff and when not to bluff, with the majority of success relying on card odds and pot odds. In truth, to be successful at poker, you really have to get the basics of card odds and pot odds and then be able to combine that with an understanding of when a bluffing opportunity - or more likely a semi-bluff - arises. Bluffs aren't even as great at low limit poker and fixed limit poker, because I've found a lot of players are very eager to call your bluff because "it's not much to lose". At higher stakes, you might be able to pull off a sloppy bluff, but then if you are wrong there's a lot to lose.

Secondly, I also believe far too many players still think that tells are a good sign. I think in this day and age, when it comes to poker, far more individuals are aware of their tells and more likely to not show them in a live game, but if we're talking online then tells might be present but entirely more difficult to spot because you're basing everything on actions on the table and not a person you can actually see.


Attempting to learn the ABCs of poker is impossible, because I don't think there is any true ABC to success, you simply have to experiment and earn some experience. In your second to last paragraph, you mentioned something about the cards you hold and 3x big blind bets and this is exactly the type of ABC of poker that will get you in trouble because there is so much more to consider than just how much someone has raised. You also have to consider the likely hood of a draw, how much you'll lose if you don't hit that draw, but how much to gain, how much of your entire bankroll are you using, what exactly is the other player possibly raising with in comparison to what's on the board, etc...
 
PlayHunter

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Thanks Cobra, anyway, I will read some, but just start lower at 4NL and combine both, and see how I get the hang of it. If all is fine, move up later.

Anyway, just let`s say that I will become an expert after a few months. - Is 10BB/hour (65hands) achievable at 50NL or I am dreaming with open eyes ?
 
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Blown01Cobra

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If you become an expert in just a few short months, then you'll probably know everything you need to know and more about poker and will have your answer then.
 
ScottieDuncan

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It takes patience, mostly. Don't get to hasty to win big. Just take your time and go slow. The sit n gos are better to start with. The cash tables are easy to start with too, but, both take time to get used to. Just be patient.
 
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So many variables to consider.

Life experience/upbringing: Did you play games as a family/social function as a child and young adult ? It helps in a practical experience sort of dynamic.

Attitude/personality: Do you handle losing and adversity well? Do the actions and opinions of others rattle you , change your play , etc.?

Economic situation: Is losing or winning within a level going to impact your life/situation etc.? If so you may play in a way that is not in your best interest (very important question IMO).

Family/social demands: Are you able to devote the amount of time and effort to your game to progress in a manner that fits your goals or will you need to push things along at an unrealistic rate or timeline?

Natural ability: It is not always the brightest person in the world at any specific endeavor that succeeds . There are some people that are very good at specific things and really not much else .

So if pressed for a specific answer : It depends.
 
frigidbch

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I am not a pro by any means,i enjoy the game and attempt to make a profit when i do play,Same as most folks.From what i see here is all really great advice from all. I will conform what cobra said.Starting out i would ply STT's this format will help you understand position and tight play will usually yield a good return at these tables.I would play the lowest tables or if you are on the carbon sites try the fun steps STTs.They re play money tourney that have 3 levels win the 3rd lvl and you win a buck, no monetary risk and you do learn the basics.GL to you and your time at the tables!
 
PlayHunter

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So many variables to consider.

Life experience/upbringing: Did you play games as a family/social function as a child and young adult ? It helps in a practical experience sort of dynamic.

Attitude/personality: Do you handle losing and adversity well? Do the actions and opinions of others rattle you , change your play , etc.?

Economic situation: Is losing or winning within a level going to impact your life/situation etc.? If so you may play in a way that is not in your best interest (very important question IMO).

Family/social demands: Are you able to devote the amount of time and effort to your game to progress in a manner that fits your goals or will you need to push things along at an unrealistic rate or timeline?

Natural ability: It is not always the brightest person in the world at any specific endeavor that succeeds . There are some people that are very good at specific things and really not much else .

So if pressed for a specific answer : It depends.

Life experience/upbringing: - yes, gambling on all sorts of games for money but not poker. Currently I am playing backgammon and blackjack and making ~$4-5/hour.

Attitude/personality: - I may have a problem with this in the sense that sometimes I want to win (a bit) more and I find me pushing it that hard that I lose half (or even more) of that win made in that respective day. This only happens with the winnings made in one certain day, I do not try to recover loses pushing it too. Sometimes it works and is dandy, but when it fails makes me feel sick.- Simply would be to never want more than what I get, but how to let this urge go off ?

Economic situation: - losing will not affect my lifestyle - I have a bankroll set aside for the games which never depleted in 6 years until now (BUT was endangered a couple of times when I had a series of +EV events very expensive for my bankroll, played them all in a short period of time and lost)

- winning yes, can have an impact allowing me to buy some extra stuff or whatever which I would not buy otherwise.

Family/social demands: - learning poker will interrupt my (daily) backgammon/blackjack playing time which is ~2hours (and worth ~$9) and somehow I would like to make time for 4 hours of reading and learning poker a day, which yes will require some extra effort just in order to achieve my poker goal faster.

- That`s why I want to estimate how long can it take to assimilate and successfully apply what I learn to reach my goal (10BB/65hands at 50NL) and if it is realistic ?

Natural ability: - well, I do good with straightforward problems, but I consider me not a person with creative imagination, I am much better at imitation of what I see.
 
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Arjonius

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I doubt it's possible to predict reliably how quickly a person will advance. As I said about IQ, it's also not just about math aptitude. You don't need to be a natural math whiz to be a great player. It helps, but you can also be awful or anywhere in between.

Also many if not most players don't improve / advance steadily. For example, some breeze through a particular level while others hit a ceiling or at least require much more time and effort to reach the same win rate at the same level.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Your book list is all over the map and could definitely hurt you if you don't understand AND can keep track of all of those different strategies WHICH are contingent on a specific set of circumstances not just limited to the type of game.

Have you not heard - "5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master?"

You are more likely looking at years as opposed to months. Not saying you won't win, but the player you are 3 years from now will laugh at the player you are today. At least if you are doing it right he will.
 
dj11

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29,000 hours might do it.

But you ask about achieving 10BB/Hour which is nearly absurd, so that could change the hours to 290,000 hours or 29 and finding the sweet spot by complete serendipity.

As far as books go, assuming you have read all those. Read each one again, and then again, and notice how each time you will get new insights into the theoretical game in general, and your game in particular. Same stuff you read the first time, but due to new experiences you will find new meaning. In the case of many books, there may be no actually limit to how many times this will happen.

This of course assumes you really are a 30 year old with an average IQ.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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There is so much strategy involved in poker. I don't think it's a game that can be mastered quickly.

That being said, you also must avoid tilt. Many players know the right things to do. They get steamed over a hand, and flush 5 buy-ins before they regain their self control.

Poker requires fantastic money management, self control, responsibility, and logic. One must be responsible to succeed. After a while, it isn't gambling, but a grind. Making money is inevitable to the right player.

To the OP:
You can't put a timeframe on learning poker. You may never have what it takes to profit. Conversely, you may be a master soon. Just dive in and see what happens.

Don't focus too much on books. They are great food for thought, but experience is the key.
 
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