Last to act - betting with the nuts, & soft playing

Mortis

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This happened in today's CC freeroll. The names at the table have been covered. There were only 2 of us in the hand, anyway. And I realize my play wasn't all that great, either, but I just wanted to bring up the issue that the player in the hand and I discussed a bit at the table: Betting when you are last to act with the absolute nuts.

So, here is the hand that played:

I'm in the SB, villain is in BB. Blinds at 20/40. Folds around to me.

I'm sitting with A3h. I raise 3x to 120. Villain reraises to 280. I call (I probably should have folded).

Flop comes Ad Kd 4c. I bet 280 in the 560 pot. Villain calls.

Turn comes Qd. Check. Check.

River comes Jd. Check..... and check.

Villain shows Qs 10d. Villains wins with the Royal Flush, but checked it.


There are a couple of reasons why you don't check the nuts when you are second to act.

1) What do you have to lose? You have the absolute best possible hand that you can have with those cards. You check, sure you win. You bet, they fold, you win the same amount. You bet, they call, you win more money. Or your best outcome, you bet, they raise... you reraise until they call or fold or get all in. You can't lose that hand.

2) We had a discussion about soft playing during this hand. Obviously, this wasn't a case of soft playing, but other players might not know that.

Soft playing is when players minimally bet so as the other player doesn't lose as much money. It's a form of collusion. At some casinos and big tournaments, it's a rule that you MUST bet if you are last to act and have the absolute nuts. You can be penalized for it.
 

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HowS

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As the villain, I would definitely value bet maybe 1/3 the pot. He had position on you as well, there's no reason to check. Maybe he's new and he didn't know the rules, lol.

Would you consider calling 1/3 pot bet on the river?
 
Mortis

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As the villain, I would definitely value bet maybe 1/3 the pot. He had position on you as well, there's no reason to check. Maybe he's new and he didn't know the rules, lol.

Would you consider calling 1/3 pot bet on the river?


No, I still probably wouldn't have called. Any diamond would have me beat, plus a number of other cards. But either way, betting or not, he has the hand won. Might as well try to get some value out of it.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Apparently it's not a rule on BC - there was no penalty, right? But the only justifiable reason to check (if allowed) is to get a peek at your opponents cards to see what he was going to the river with. I just don't see that applying on this hand since his opponent slammed on the brakes after the flop. And I'd have to be pretty bamboozled and frustrated by an opponent over some time before I would employ that tactic. Or I suppose a more inexperienced guy wants to insure everyone can see the amazing hand he lucked into. I'm not all that curious, or proud, I'm betting that puppy..

Nice of you to do some tutoring, though
 
Mortis

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Apparently it's not a rule on BC - there was no penalty, right? But the only justifiable reason to check (if allowed) is to get a peek at your opponents cards to see what he was going to the river with. I just don't see that applying on this hand since his opponent slammed on the brakes after the flop. And I'd have to be pretty bamboozled and frustrated by an opponent over some time before I would employ that tactic. Or I suppose a more inexperienced guy wants to insure everyone can see the amazing hand he lucked into. I'm not all that curious, or proud, I'm betting that puppy..

Nice of you to do some tutoring, though


No penalty. I don't think they penalize online for that.
 
Talden

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Ok in this case the villain = ME. And as Mort said we had a small talk about it after the hand. Thanks Mort if i ever get able to play live i will not make that mistake. But in my defense i was trying to get a wife with strep-throat settled into bed and my first though was he will fold if i bet. But it is obvious i had nothing in the world to lose by betting. Lesson learned. That's why i joined this forum, i am newer player and i want to learn, Mort taught me another thing last night. Thats the power of CC if your active and play some with the forum peeps you will learn. But as one of the first threads i made in CC was about playing distracted. I mentioned my wife, well after 30 yrs of marriage i hope she distracts me for many more. lol But as i said Lesson learned, you will pay to see my nuts from now on..lol Thanks again Mort and thanks for the thread explaining. Y'all have a great day... Tal
 
MediaBLITZ

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Ok in this case the villain = ME. i was trying to get a wife with strep-throat settled into bed and

Or then there's always that... Don't know how I missed it!?!
 
Talden

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Lmao if you had guessed that one you could change your name to nostrildumass and started writing books. Have a good one.
 
SBEP

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I didnt know bout the last to act has to bet, but bet big rule, what if i bet small just to get some more from the poor guy, lets say same example 1.2K in the pot and i bet 300, coz i feel he would pat that, coz if i bet big on that hand, i know there is no way in hell he/she would pay me, so its not soft play its, betting for thin value that i feel he/she could pay me.
 
MediaBLITZ

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I didnt know bout the last to act has to bet, but bet big rule, what if i bet small just to get some more from the poor guy, lets say same example 1.2K in the pot and i bet 300, coz i feel he would pat that, coz if i bet big on that hand, i know there is no way in hell he/she would pay me, so its not soft play its, betting for thin value that i feel he/she could pay me.

That's fine and probably even advisable. But when don't bet at all with the stone cold nuts, well it looks a bit like you are at the least taking it easy on an opponent which can lead to accusations of collusion.
But it's not a universal law - you need to know how the pace you play it handles it. It became very widespread knowledge during the 2010 wsop ME when Darvin Moon was penalized after hitting the nut flush on the river and checking as last to act - which brings up the point, if you are FIRST TO ACT you do not have to bet the nuts. Last to act has to and I believe if you are last to act and opponent bets you must raise. Anyone?

 
Mortis

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Ok in this case the villain = ME. And as Mort said we had a small talk about it after the hand. Thanks Mort if i ever get able to play live i will not make that mistake. But in my defense i was trying to get a wife with strep-throat settled into bed and my first though was he will fold if i bet. But it is obvious i had nothing in the world to lose by betting. Lesson learned. That's why i joined this forum, i am newer player and i want to learn, Mort taught me another thing last night. Thats the power of CC if your active and play some with the forum peeps you will learn. But as one of the first threads i made in CC was about playing distracted. I mentioned my wife, well after 30 yrs of marriage i hope she distracts me for many more. lol But as i said Lesson learned, you will pay to see my nuts from now on..lol Thanks again Mort and thanks for the thread explaining. Y'all have a great day... Tal


No worries. And I wasn't complaining that you checked the river, either. Saved me some money.. though, I probably wouldn't have called anyway, haha. I have just seen people get called out at the live table for soft playing when people have checked the nuts after the river. Especially at the casino when people know that there are 2 friends in the hand. I've seen people get penalties for it at the big tournaments on TV, too.

Like you said, that's what CC is for, to learn. And it gave me a chance to make a thread that might actually be worth something lol.

Hope your wife is doing better!
 
Mortis

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That's fine and probably even advisable. But when don't bet at all with the stone cold nuts, well it looks a bit like you are at the least taking it easy on an opponent which can lead to accusations of collusion.
But it's not a universal law - you need to know how the pace you play it handles it. It became very widespread knowledge during the 2010 WSOP ME when Darvin Moon was penalized after hitting the nut flush on the river and checking as last to act - which brings up the point, if you are FIRST TO ACT you do not have to bet the nuts. Last to act has to and I believe if you are last to act and opponent bets you must raise. Anyone?

Checking the Nuts in Texas Hold'em - YouTube


There we go. That video explains it perfectly.
 
detroitjunkie

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That's fine and probably even advisable. But when don't bet at all with the stone cold nuts, well it looks a bit like you are at the least taking it easy on an opponent which can lead to accusations of collusion.
But it's not a universal law - you need to know how the pace you play it handles it. It became very widespread knowledge during the 2010 WSOP ME when Darvin Moon was penalized after hitting the nut flush on the river and checking as last to act - which brings up the point, if you are FIRST TO ACT you do not have to bet the nuts. Last to act has to and I believe if you are last to act and opponent bets you must raise. Anyone?

Checking the Nuts in Texas Hold'em - YouTube


Ok here is the deal. There is no written rule that expresses this exactly, as far as I know. What the rule says is soft play is not allowed and can be penalized, and in cases like the WSOPME it will be. Most floors define this action as soft play, but I guess there can be a room out there that does not.

With this being said, if first to act bets, there is no soft play, so last to act with the nuts can just call and have it not be a penalty. That's how I define the rule.

In my rooms we do not issue a penalty at first offense, but if it continues, or seems like an obviously soft play from my observations, I will make the player sit out a round, if they do it again after that, they will be ejected from the tournament and all chips removed from the table

this rule is RARELY ever used in cash games anywhere
 
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