KK,QQ at any point in tourney

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HypeHillbilly

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I have Learned and still cant help myself sometimes to not push all in...
Well Let me tell you something NEVER SHOVE ALL IN with these hands preflop in any postion I dont care if you watched the youtube video of Daniel Negreanu
and He says to always shove with KKs now i forget if he was talking about Live Maybe a lil diffrent But online poker never... I will Tell You a Secret
when you encounter these Hands SLow Play them But Never Slow Play Aces but that be another thread today....
The Reason is why there not the strong there only stong on before the flop
And You have to Be also well aware of the board texture here is a example where i messed up last night even slow playing them and getting commited to them.. Be vary wary of these hands becuase these hands KK QQ will kill you more than TT or JJ OK so last night was rank 11th out of 247 people with 26k chips
I am in Button Get dealt KK i know not to get crazy with them But u always want to raise i think blinds werent that big maybe 75 150 or so
but MP raises 1500 i simply reriase to 3k it goes back to him he calls we are
Heads Up Also his chip count is around 23k so i have him in chips so this can get crazy

Flop 9 8 6 rainbow
so theres no flush only striaght but i know he doesnt have it becuase of how he bet preflop i put him on pair of Qs Im not scared yet its his turn to bet
He bets 1/2 pot which is 3k now i simply put a min raise on him so 3k more he calls
Turn is 10 now pot is around 13-14k half are stacks
im worried about pk 10s now but he checks
so now I shove all in and calls shows JJs
im relived at first
then ofc flop comes and u guessed it a 7
he hits the str8

I think the only other way i could of played this hand is shoved after flop
Even then He might of called but it would of been the best play there
it is so easy to lose with KK and QQ by getting to commited or overplaying them So Just be very careful playing these when big stack
 
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HypeHillbilly

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ok so right after I post this what do i get KK i was small blind poeple 3bet i am chip leader on table so i push all in and 2 people call and i win
Then next hand im on button now i get QQ and 2 poeple went all in before me i call and take down the pot how crazy is that im in shock lol
 
ConDeck

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Disagree with the OP, KK is nearly always a shove pre, certainly more than a min 3bet, later in the tournament. Your playing to win, not survive for a min cash and slow playing monsters is not the most efficient long term way of doing this. You run into AA hard luck...
 
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HypeHillbilly

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I SLIGHTLY DISSAGREE most people play way to aggressive in tourney and always find themself from chip leader to Finished In a matter of Hands

And if you dont think Tourneys are sometimes about being super agressive and building your chip stack to the roof well thats all good but most likely if u play like that you wont last very long.I would rather place and make money every tourney im in then try to be over agressive and lose most of the time...
keeping your chip stack is one of the most over looked thing to do in poker..
Everyone plays to aggressive right now with a wide range of hands..
and your wrong Survival is key when making it to final table it doesnt matter if im little stack at final table everything can change but to to play over agressive and not make it to final table when u could of sitout for half hr and let other players take each other out
 
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Jalapano

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You need to play the hand in the way that gets you the most chips while limiting your risk of losing. There is so many ways to play these hands and they all vary on position, chip count to blinds, and table mentality. If its early in the tournament and all-ins are overbets, then yes I will make a raise or reraise and try to make my money post flop. If its getting towards crunch time then there is no way I'm slow playing these big hands. If I have these cards early position, an open shove might not always be best. Raise and hope someone comes over the top. With that said, no matter the situation, my goal is to get my chips in heads up. I don't want to be playing post flop with 3 people in the hand.
 
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Sergei

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This is the same dangerous hands like AA because it seems you have a pair but willing to give this pair addition to make it set hard. But to let the opponent needs at least two cards say he has a 10-9 and on the table falls 10-9 and you're already screwed.
 
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assafyer

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With KK I will Shove it with any doubts and in any position QQ will be more tricky but still most of the time it will be Shove
 
Poker Orifice

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I SLIGHTLY DISSAGREE most people play way to aggressive in tourney and always find themself from chip leader to Finished In a matter of Hands

I EXTREMELY DISAGREE unless you're referring to an online public freeroll.


And in the hand you've posted, (aside from the betting being absurd), suggesting that the better (best?) way to have played it would've been for you to just shove allin on the flop is pretty terrible.
 
ConDeck

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I EXTREMELY DISAGREE unless you're referring to an online public freeroll.





And in the hand you've posted, (aside from the betting being absurd), suggesting that the better (best?) way to have played it would've been for you to just shove allin on the flop is pretty terrible.


At no point did I say to shove on the flip would be better/best or that I even advocate doing this.

I did suggest shoving preflop however. I this spot with the ridiculous open why would you not want to get it all in pre here to give you a huge chip lead and a massive chance at a very deep run, especially without being for your tournament life?

As you mention the betting was absurd, especially pre, this was exactly my point... Why would you not re raise more than a min raise or even reshove KK in this spot?
 
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leorulex

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Yeah, kk is so strong is, nearly always a shove pre. Slow playing monsters is not the most efficient long term way of doing this. If u lose or Aa hard luck
 
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HypeHillbilly

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KK got crushed again on dealer Position was chip leader or in 2nd place had 125k on 50$ cafrino freeroll i should know by now when your close to final table to fold them they are not powerful they are dangerous and they are over played i thought i was safe i really was just trying to steal the 9k in blinds but someone called me with A5 off suit and like always i got crushed and instead of wining 20$ i only won .50 coming in at 13th you guys think that shoving all in with KKs is the best move i dont think it is when your trying to make the final table i went from chip leader to broke trying to steal blinds and heres the problem i know its going to happen but i shove anyway
 
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limakpl

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Just remind yourself times when you won tons of chips when playing KK or QQ aggresively preflop and postflop and compare it to times when you got "UNLUCKY".
 
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Joaquin Moris

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KK is the second best hand, push hard in order to get tricky hands away from the action
 
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Mug

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Funny thing. I was actually writing a response to this thread while I found you HypeHillbilly raising 6x UTG as I held KK on the button. There is a caller in the cutoff and when the action gets to me I 3bet to 2800 all in. SB calls and both you and the cutoff snap call. Then we see an Ace of the flop. Naturally both you and cutoff were holding AQ.

Even though I lost the hand I would played this hand the exact same way every time. You were going to lose that pot over 80% of the time. I would jam preflop and take those odds every single time. 3 or 4 betting with Aces and Kings preflop, your goal is usually to make smaller pocket pairs, weak aces and any other garbage fold and get heads up against a single caller.
 
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Zackenta

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I always 3-bet then shove on KK QQ. May not be the best way to play it just a preferred style for me
 
robertocoelho

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I would make a 3x raise pre flop villain and post flop bet 1/2 pot, all in only if the villain were half my stack.
 
lcid86

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kk always, QQ depends on position an read of opponents
 
PLAYINBIG

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I do not think he would have folded JJ pre flop or post flop regardless of how you played it especially post flop.I think he was just lucky.
 
pcgnome

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You got your money in good, and that's about all you do. After the turn he had about 10 outs, and your going find yourself sucking out on the river several times in these type of situations no matter what you do. That's just poker. When you find yourself with premium starting hands you have to leave yourself a bit of wiggle room so your losses aren't so great if they don't hold up all the way to the river. Shoving right after the flop or the turn is really awful in the middle stages of a tournament. It would make more sense to push all in with KK or QQ if you had less than 15 blinds when you were getting close to the bubble.
 
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CallmeFloppy

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I would have considered a bigger raise pre-flop. I'll take my chances with Daniel's advice over an example of someone getting unlucky. If I followed that logic, I wouldn't be able to play any cards.
 
pcgnome

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Okay pre-flop I might have bet at least 3x his raise, and around 3x his bet post flop. I still have my doubts that he would fold if he's just some ordinary average donk. There's nothing unusual about sucking out on the river in this type of situation. It happens all the time. Don't let it bother you.
 
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FromHereOn

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Context is too important to make rules on if/when to bet or shove KK.

Try and gauge your opponents' desperation in tournaments and decide if you'll make more flat-calling and trapping with an overpair.

If it comes to a betting war, do whatever it takes to get your opponent to get it all-in behind including pre-flop.
 
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ph_il

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First, don't psych yourself out into thinking at getting all more money with QQ or KK is bad. Preflop, they're very strong and they're going to win a lot of times. QQ, I might fold depending on the situation, action before me, and who I'm up against, but I'm almost never, ever folding KK for all my chips preflo. Whether I'm shoving or calling, it's getting in there 99.9% of the time. The only exception would be in satellite bubble situation where there are multiple all-ins before me.

Just because you lost a couple of big hands with KK doesn't mean it's a bad hand to go all in with PF. That's part of the game; even if you get in with the best hand, you're going to lose from time to time.

I'd like to go ever your hand in your first post:
OK so last night was rank 11th out of 247 people with 26k chips
I am in Button Get dealt KK i know not to get crazy with them But u always want to raise i think blinds werent that big maybe 75 150 or so
but MP raises 1500 i simply reriase to 3k it goes back to him he calls we are
Heads Up Also his chip count is around 23k so i have him in chips so this can get crazy

...When MP raised 10x the blinds, what hand range did you put him on for raising so much? What were you hoping your min 3bet would accomplish? Honestly, someone who is raising 10x BB is not going to fold to a min raise and unless you're hoping he'd 4bet shove into you, you're just bloating the pot and making it easy for them to call.

Flop 9 8 6 rainbow
so theres no flush only striaght but i know he doesnt have it becuase of how he bet preflop i put him on pair of Qs Im not scared yet its his turn to bet
He bets 1/2 pot which is 3k now i simply put a min raise on him so 3k more he calls

...What factors allowed you to put him on QQ? Because that's a very specific hand. Based on how he's played before at the table, is he 10x BB raising preflop with QQ often? Is he just calling a min-raise with QQ preflop or would he have 4bet with it?

With his preflop raise so big, I might've put him on mid-pairs and thought that he just wants to take the pot uncontested instead of seeing a board of over cards and be forced to fold. Of course, he could be doing this with a hand like 1010-JJ, AK and wants to make it expensive to play instead letting someone call for a standard 3-4x raise and getting lucky with a QJ, A9s, etc type hand. QQ+, I expect a 4bet most of the time. So, possible range would be 55-JJ, maybe AK.


On the flop, I agree that it's very unlikely he's flopped a straight, but it's still a very scary board. Especially if he's put on a hand range of 55-JJ; if he doesn't have a set, straight draws are very possible if he's holding a mid pair.

He makes a standard c-bet for half pot and he potentially has a lot of outs if he's behind. Since you put him on QQ, you're obviously way ahead and your min-raise is fine if want to bloat the pot and extract as much money as possible from him. Again, though, I ask how you put him on such a specific hand? Also, if you had considered he might've had a mid-pair with straight draw possibilities, how would you have played it differently?


Turn is 10 now pot is around 13-14k half are stacks
im worried about pk 10s now but he checks
so now I shove all in

...This is really confusing to me. First you put him on QQ and now you put him on 1010. Lets just say the range you put him on is 1010-QQ. What's even more confusing, though, is if you put him on 1010 after a turn is a 10, and he checks...why are shoving into him? If you think you're behind at this point, what does shoving here accomplish? Even if he doesn't have 1010, the turn completes a lot of straights and opens a lot more straight draw possibilities. So, you're probably just slightly ahead or way behind at this point.

and calls shows JJs
im relived at first
then ofc flop comes and u guessed it a 7
he hits the str8

...So, your read of QQ isn't that far off but given that board, his hand, and how everything played out, there is no way he is folding to a shove with JJ on the turn.

I think the only other way i could of played this hand is shoved after flop
Even then He might of called but it would of been the best play there.

...Actually, that would've been a terrible play. Shoving 133BBs into a 40BB pot? You're only beating 1010-QQ, slightly ahead a mid pair with straight draws, or way behind a made set or the very unlikely made straight. All very possible hands.

A better play would have been to raise a lot more on the flop and then re-evaluate opponents action. If opponent 4bets /shoves, then I'm shoving/calling here because I'm a lot more confident in the strength of my hand now. It's very unlikely he's 4betting with a made hand or something as strong as set because that would kill the action if you had missed. So, now you're only behind AA if he's being tricky with it and t's very unlikely he has KK, so 1010-QQ is still possible and you're way ahead, and mid-pair + straight draws are possible and you're ahead of those as well.

However, you min raised and gave him a good price to call with a whole range of hands and to let him see a very scary turn for cheap. On the turn, shoving was definitely bad. Again, you're way behind or just slightly ahead a lot of draws. I would've checked behind and gone to the river. On the river, it's a very easy check behind or fold situation. I'm almost never calling a bet here unless it's something ridiculously low like 300 into a 12K pot. Other wise, it's almost always a value bet and you aren't beating a lot of hands here.


it is so easy to lose with KK and QQ by getting to commited or overplaying them So Just be very careful playing these when big stack

...Very true, but you definitely made some questionable plays like min-raising and giving opponent a good price to stick around on a scary flop, then shoving into a scary turn. You definitely could've played it differently and probably would've lost, but you would still be in the tournament
Just my analysis.

I play tournaments a lot and I'm always asking myself "Why" and "What" through out the game.

-Why is my opponent raising this much?
-What could he have?
-Why am I raising here and what do I hope to accomplish?
-What am I going to do if they 4bet or shove?
-If I'm folding to a 4bet or shove, why would I raise here?
-What hands am I beating after the flop?
-What am I losing to?

And a whole lot more. I try to have a reason for every action I make.

I hope you reply.
 
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Kidkododo

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I Always try to get my opponent to go all in pre-flop. If I have QQ or KK i'll make a big raise regardles, If nobody raises in front of me Then I'll just shove all in
 
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