KK preflop cash vs super tight player

So I played this horribly yesterday in the micro. I had KK and raised 3x bb, was hoping to get reraised. But I get reraised by a extremely one-dimensional tight player (9vp) to 12bb. I've played with him many times. I know he only raises this much when he has QQ or AA, perhaps JJ but not that likely. He'll raise and go all the way to river when he has pocket pairs that are greater than the board. I Should have re-raised but I called. Flop is completely safe, all rags. I bet pot, he raises, I fold. I knew he was going to raise regardless what he has, as long as he has an overpair. So I wasn't even committed and I still called pre-flop.

So how do I play KK against a player that can only possibly have QQ or AA? Is it ever right to fold KK preflop and just wait for a better chance? Or just hope your ahead?

You can't fold it preflop. You have to assume you are ahead. Even if youre facing an all in I would have a hard time folding. Remember that KK vs. AK is a 70% favorite to win. If you get up against AA, well then you still have 2 outs. If he beats you then he beats you. I would rather lose a pot than have to remember folding to a worse hand if you folded against QQ or JJ. That's why they call it gambling.

if you think he had AA he probably did.....i made this mistake 2 months ago.

i was dealt KK, raised it 4x BB (i was playing cash at .25/50 so i made it 2 bucks to call me. the dude raised it to 4 dollars and i called. flop was Q 3 7...completely safe...he checks ...i bet out 11 bucks he shoves me all in....i call turn over KK he shows his AA and im out 25 bucks....morale of the story is dont call if you think he has them lol

never fold kk preflop,only in very special situations at "double or nothing" sng tournaments. i'm 90% sure,he didnt have AA.maybe a pair of jacks or queens,so i think was a bad fold,but everyone have his strategy.

Judging from what you told us, he probably did have AA. I'm not sure there's anything you can do there. You either put him on AA and fold early and feel like you might have misplayed or, or you did what you did and feel like you misplayed it.

You should have re-raised him. If you get re-re-raised....then he has the Aces. No doubt about it. The 4th raise is always aces.

LizzyJ said:

You should have re-raised him. If you get re-re-raised....then he has the Aces. No doubt about it. The 4th raise is always aces.

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I'm 4-betting you with everything then!!

K-Qo - 4bet
J-Ts - 4bet
7-2o - 4bet

very occasionally you will hold AA and call, and I'll lose my stack, but overall I'll show a profit.

I might just call a 3-bet with AA.. I want to get a bit more value from you!! LOL

Sounds great, players with more guts than brains are very fun to play with.

LizzyJ said:

Sounds great, players with more guts than brains are very fun to play with.

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Its not guts, its maths. The value of the bet is not in the strength of the hand, its in the fold equity a 4-bet has against you.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

133,559,712 games 0.005 secs 26,711,942,400 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.005% 46.11% 03.89% 61587240 5199546.00 { QQ+ }
Hand 1: 49.995% 46.10% 03.89% 61573380 5199546.00 { KK }

Ship it.

The answer is already written in your question!
He could have any high pair from JJ, QQ or AA.
Even if he is just playnig QQ or AA you got 50%.
Maybe he is holding KK too!
The odds fit.... :deal:

If I had a $1 for every, "should I fold KK pre?!?!?" thread, I'd have enough dollars to stack off with KK forever. Stack it and forget it, you shouldn't have more than 5% of your bankroll on the table anyway. Stu's right, if you're folding that large a range to 4 bets you're just going to get destroyed...

I never fold KK no matter what. I think Dan Harrington also says never fold KK during pre-flop. You can still put up a fight even if someone has Aces. Chances of someone having AA when you have KK is very slim. I've folded QQ, JJ and below but never KK and AA. I remember folding KK but that was only when I was in the restroom and I got timed out....................which was a good thing because Ace was on the flop. That was the only time i folded KK. But in my opinion, NEVER fold KK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_probability_(Texas_hold_'em)

They explain the chances of someone having pocket Aces when you hold KK.

Stu_Ungar said:

Its not guts, its maths. The value of the bet is not in the strength of the hand, its in the fold equity a 4-bet has against you.

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Perfect ............
Play the Situation not your cards ...........

Roller said:

Perfect ............
Play the Situation not your cards ...........

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I like this, I try to live by it. Sometimes you see a pair like JJ hit a set on the flop, other times you see it easily overtaken by a Q hitting the flop and some1 pairing up, when you are dead in the water with your cowboys.

What about flop or post flop and somebody shoves on a board with no aces?

gkh said:

What about flop or post flop and somebody shoves on a board with no aces?

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There is no simple answer.

It all depends on their pre flop raising range, preflop 3bet range, type of board, size of pot, tendency to c-bet etc etc.

Basically the answer to this question is to learn to play poker well!!!

LizzyJ said:

You should have re-raised him. If you get re-re-raised....then he has the Aces. No doubt about it. The 4th raise is always aces.

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hi phil gordon

vanquish said:

hi phil gordon

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lol. phil gordon sure likes to pull sh1t out of his ass and give horrible advices to people.

Stu_Ungar said:

There is no simple answer.

It all depends on their pre flop raising range, preflop 3bet range, type of board, size of pot, tendency to c-bet etc etc.

Basically the answer to this question is to learn to play poker well!!!

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Darn. That takes time.

I always fold kk preflop.
Always..........

left52side said:

I always fold kk preflop.
Always..........

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LOL

FOLD it .....
That way you can't have someone suck out on you with 2 7.

lol



Just kidding of course....

The only conceivable situation I would fold KK to an AI shove would be if it was the wsop Main Event (which I had qualified for by some miracle performance in a satellite and/or freeroll, it was down to the last man before the money, and a player who had been folding every hand for the whole bubble (and had been playing uber tight even before then) all of a sudden open raises AI from EP or MP. I would hate to be busted out with nothing and only one man to go with KK after all that effort. Context context context. Call me a wuss but that's my two cents.

Best,
T.

As usual, it depends is a very correct answer here. If i'm playing FR, 25NL and up, and there is a reg Nit , stats like 7/4 ish over a 2k plus hand sample and theres a raise, reraise and he then shoves over top of both all in preflop, theres a good chance im considering and will fold KK. Theres only 2 hands hes shoving here with his range and thats AA or KK , and most likely hes calling with KK being the nit he is, therefore a laydown can be conceived as correct here. In most situations your not going to lay down KK preflop, but there are select situations as the one I described above. Thus DEPENDS is the right answer IMO