The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#1 April 14th, 2020, 10:06 PM

The Key to Playing Draws teaches us when to play draws aggressively and when to play them passively.

If you have not yet read Day 10 and watched the video for Day 10 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

The Key to Playing Draws

Be sure to take the quiz at the end of the video and then come back here to discuss playing draws. Collin and Katie are available to answer any questions you might have.

The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#2 April 24th, 2020, 9:39 PM

This video has taken top spot for me now because you have shown what to do and why in circumstances which require some appropriate navigation. As I was playing another 888 free roll I had the rare occurrence of getting quads pre-flop during the video presentation. I tried to illustrate how I attempted to maximize their value at a tight table. I initially put in a mini-bet which was called pre-flop but no-one was biting afterwards so I put in a small bet after the river to make it look like a steal and won a few chips. Too much and he would have folded, too little and it would not have mattered so I had to price this person out and it worked by placing myself in his position and how he perceived my betting patterns.

#3 April 27th, 2020, 6:05 PM

answer to the question: we have 12 outs, 3 for gut shot and 9 for flush. there is approximately a 25% chance I would bet on the semi bluff.
But I have a question could we be playing against a 9T straight draw for example then our gutshot outs would be tiny like the right 7?

#4 April 29th, 2020, 12:31 AM

To me the 4-2 Rule comes into play first to determine an approx % to hit , but also should we also look at the total cards remaining against our outs. Eg
your hole cards + board at Turn , = 6 cards, so say a flush draw (9*2=18%)
46 remaining cards - 9 for the draw or 46-9 = 35 which is about 4:1 to hit

#5 May 1st, 2020, 8:14 AM

I confess that I have reviewed the chapters and the video a few times to try to absorb the knowledge that was many, because they are not very good at math.

But, the approach to the topic was excellent because it makes, as Collin said, a rough idea of what we should do (for me at the beginning with the aid of a calculator). The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

I will probably revisit these concepts many times so as not to act impulsively with low pocket pairs and high pairs in some spots.

We should always have the statistics in hand, to reduce losses, because even with the maximum outs, we can catch bad beats as in the penultimate example of the video.

Good Luck and lets movie foward The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#6 May 1st, 2020, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Polytarp

This video has taken top spot for me now because you have shown what to do and why in circumstances which require some appropriate navigation. As I was playing another 888 free roll I had the rare occurrence of getting quads pre-flop during the video presentation. I tried to illustrate how I attempted to maximize their value at a tight table. I initially put in a mini-bet which was called pre-flop but no-one was biting afterwards so I put in a small bet after the river to make it look like a steal and won a few chips. Too much and he would have folded, too little and it would not have mattered so I had to price this person out and it worked by placing myself in his position and how he perceived my betting patterns.

The �curse� of flopping quads is too often true of huuuge hands in poker�where we have such a strong hand that we have the board monopolized to the point where it�s hard for our opponents to have the kind of big holdings that we would have the best chance of extracting a lot of value from! Sounds like you did the best job you could�ve in that situation, nice work! The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#7 May 1st, 2020, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by I Live Poker

answer to the question: we have 12 outs, 3 for gut shot and 9 for flush. there is approximately a 25% chance I would bet on the semi bluff.
But I have a question could we be playing against a 9T straight draw for example then our gutshot outs would be tiny like the right 7?

Good point, it�s def true that players can have stronger holdings than we expect in a given scenario which therefore reduces the number of true outs in that situation. I like to handle this by calculating the outs that I likely have versus his most probable range, but then adding a grain of salt type of adjustment like �but if he has xx then of course I don�t actually have that many outs� which is particularly helpful in close decisions. The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#8 May 1st, 2020, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre1279

But, the approach to the topic was excellent because it makes, as Collin said, a rough idea of what we should do (for me at the beginning with the aid of a calculator).

I will probably revisit these concepts many times so as not to act impulsively with low pocket pairs and high pairs in some spots.

We should always have the statistics in hand, to reduce losses, because even with the maximum outs, we can catch bad beats as in the penultimate example of the video.

Good Luck and lets movie foward The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

Don�t worry! When I first started playing, math was my enemy haha. I�m just not naturally one of those people that finds math interesting, it never came easily to me. (Collin certainly had the advantage over me in that regard with a degree in theoretical mathematics!)

But I was able to overcome my lack of love for math when it relates to poker through a ton of practice. For me, it helped a ton that it�s all practical, enactable math and imo it is completely non-negotiable to be good at poker math in order to be the best poker player we can possibly be. Just don�t ask me any calculus questions

There�s no shame in using your calculator, I still have mine by me when I play! I bet you�ll be a poker math whiz before you know it

#9 May 2nd, 2020, 6:13 PM

Another very comprehensive topic! Thanks!

#10 May 4th, 2020, 1:44 AM

Prior to taking this course I would have folded this hand. I was afraid if i didn't flop the nutz.
Now I consider continuing on looking for draw possibilities. The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/4qrTcLK

Typically I would have folded to the first raiser. After the flop I realize I have a gutshot draw and possible flush. Then my draw looks even better.

Couple weeks ago this never could have happened Great Course Thankyou

#11 May 4th, 2020, 5:00 PM

Finished Day #10.

My answers to today's quiz:

i)We have 12 outs. 4 sevens and 8 clubs (the 7 of clubs is one of the four outs of the gutshot, so we don't count it twice).
ii)26.1% of the time.
iii)Villain checks back the flop, so he probably doesn't have anything valuable here. I think I would made a ~40-50% of the pot bet to finish the hand here.

Tomorrow with Day #11.

#12 May 5th, 2020, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Polytarp

This video has taken top spot for me now because you have shown what to do and why in circumstances which require some appropriate navigation. As I was playing another 888 free roll I had the rare occurrence of getting quads pre-flop during the video presentation. I tried to illustrate how I attempted to maximize their value at a tight table. I initially put in a mini-bet which was called pre-flop but no-one was biting afterwards so I put in a small bet after the river to make it look like a steal and won a few chips. Too much and he would have folded, too little and it would not have mattered so I had to price this person out and it worked by placing myself in his position and how he perceived my betting patterns.

While I think it's great that you are sharing your learning, I can't help but wonder if it's ok to be showing screenshots with other players names clearly displayed. Is this allowed? Just asking.

As for your quads, good work! It's always tough when you flop a monster nut; I often find even the maniacs get squeamish, lol. It can be hard to get much into the pot, but the flush on board may have helped? People might fear the trips, they may even, for a moment, consider the FH, but rarely consider 4 of a kind!

#13 May 5th, 2020, 4:34 PM

Wow, today's lesson started my brain hurting!

Here was me thinking it was just about draws - lol 'just' - of course not! Pot odds, implied odds, stacks, betting patterns, anyone got an aspirin? The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#14 May 5th, 2020, 9:53 PM

Haha cferdi that's fair but don't worry, it gets a lot easier with practice and seeing the same types of situations come up a lot The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#15 May 6th, 2020, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by cferdi

While I think it's great that you are sharing your learning, I can't help but wonder if it's ok to be showing screenshots with other players names clearly displayed. Is this allowed? Just asking.

When I was on RedKings they had "anonymous" tables where no screen names were displayed and you couldn't track anyone specifically and explicitly. If you kept notes however, you could figure out if there was a regular..people usually are creatures of habit especially when they believe their cloak of invisibility shields them. However, certain betting patterns from "their" tells had given me ample opportunity to provide my version of a screen name for them anyways.

On Poker Stars you can watch replays of games where any (dues paying) member of that site can see everyone's names. Any public interaction effectively removes any expectation of privacy so whatever is posted, unless there is clearly visible copyright protection, "should" be allowed. Internet law statutes and the nations that have enforced them are easily found via google. You should pose this question to the moderators of this forum for more specifics.

cheers The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#16 May 7th, 2020, 11:12 PM

Thank god for my HUD which still works at the rooms I play. Ugh. sometimes it just has to be a gut feeling for me. I have always hated math unless I can use a spreadsheet/calculator, but again..doesn't seem like there is enough time, without the table timer beeping at you..hurry up hurry up..lol

#17 May 9th, 2020, 7:17 PM

Fellow CCers,

I love the 4-2 rule. It is really handy and takes out the guesswork. What I was not doing before is factoring in my future betting so this information is a nice addition to my arsenal.

Response to the video question:

Number of outs - 12 (9 clubs and 7s,7h,7d)
Percentage to hit- 12 x 4 = ~48% (applying 4-2 rule)
Correct play is to bet to build up the pot - I would bet 1/2 pot

Hope I nailed it. I enjoyed this chapter.

#18 May 10th, 2020, 4:01 AM

OOps,

You did say by the river so it is 12 x 2 = 24% and not the 48% previously stated.

The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#19 May 10th, 2020, 4:32 AM

This is why i love poker,is you have thsi studied there is no way u can louse at poker.
This is linked to preflop strategy and post flop Cbetting planification.
Iff u have a good plan pre flop, u have studied at least the 12 or 15 flops tipes them you know wish off your proyect are the good ones to raise and play agrasivelly and valance ur monsters hands and wish one you play by X/C wile in odd,because iff you dont plan this you will be disvalanced to,or either bluff to manny draws or bluff few off them,and bouth thingh are bad

#20 May 12th, 2020, 9:07 PM

A lot of generic guidelines and principles in this lesson, but it is good stuff. There is a lot to remember, but I imagine it becomes easier with time and practice.

#21 May 12th, 2020, 11:19 PM

The key to playing draws, is one of the basic key plays in the game. The chart also, is a very valuable part of this section.

#22 May 13th, 2020, 4:29 PM

Hello, thank you for this video and day course.
I understand all the principle that you are explaining to us but i have one question :
even when we apply the rule we can loose and there is an example of that in this video when our opponent had a double and we didn't hit our flush but hero play well and apply the rule.
should we be happy even when loosing because we apply the rules ?

#23 May 13th, 2020, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by karmakoumas

Hello, thank you for this video and day course.
I understand all the principle that you are explaining to us but i have one question :
even when we apply the rule we can loose and there is an example of that in this video when our opponent had a double and we didn't hit our flush but hero play well and apply the rule.
should we be happy even when loosing because we apply the rules ?

Yes, and that's a very good point -- if you make the right decision, you should try hard to be happy regardless of the outcome. All you can do in poker is play your best possible game.

#24 May 15th, 2020, 12:22 AM

Thanks for the great course! I sometimes run into a into a bit of trouble when I play my draws aggressively (like you suggest) out of position against a bunch of players with fishy/cally inclinations. So say I'm utg and I raise 3 BB with AK diamonds and get 3 callers. Flop comes with 2 diamonds say J 7 2, I lead out with 2 overs and a flush draw and get called by 2 players, turn is a blank. Now what? Check and show weakness, or continue to put more chips into a pot which is getting expensive where I have 15 outs assuming nobody hit a set, 9 if they did, with only one card to come. I guess it would be fine to keep leading and betting out if you are sitting on a deep stack, but if you start the hand with say 30 bigs and you raise pre flop then bet the flop and the turn with nothing you can end up putting a big hole in your stack. What am I doing wrong? Thanks!

#25 May 15th, 2020, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Amanda A

Thanks for the great course! I sometimes run into a into a bit of trouble when I play my draws aggressively (like you suggest) out of position against a bunch of players with fishy/cally inclinations. So say I'm utg and I raise 3 BB with AK diamonds and get 3 callers. Flop comes with 2 diamonds say J 7 2, I lead out with 2 overs and a flush draw and get called by 2 players, turn is a blank. Now what? Check and show weakness, or continue to put more chips into a pot which is getting expensive where I have 15 outs assuming nobody hit a set, 9 if they did, with only one card to come. I guess it would be fine to keep leading and betting out if you are sitting on a deep stack, but if you start the hand with say 30 bigs and you raise pre flop then bet the flop and the turn with nothing you can end up putting a big hole in your stack. What am I doing wrong? Thanks!

Glad you're enjoying it! Good question here.

I would normally check back in position and take the free card. If you hit, great! Otherwise you can get out without losing more chips.

Out of position, I'm usually going to shove there. The pot is so large that we're close to being committed and it's better to have fold equity. So rather than risk having to call it off, I would generally shove.

#26 May 16th, 2020, 2:01 AM

I'm enjoying in the way of deep explanation from Collin and Katie when is needed, when is not they slowly introduce the ideas and you can feel how well designed the course is. Pure example is how they introduce bluffing through draws.
One of the most important thing in this course is number of played hands that are hardest to play and explaining the idea behind the plays and most important that everything is based on science and odds.

I highly recommend to everyone, even if you are experienced player I'm sure that you will find something to expand your strategy.

#27 May 16th, 2020, 3:29 PM

I think this is one of the most counter-intuitive ideas when playing poker and was certainly something I did wrong until recently. Most people think neutral or passive actions give them time to hit their draw and so, it's better to take one of those actions.
In reality, that leaves two options: hit the draw and probably win, or miss the draw and lose.
If we play draws aggressively, it leaves three options: win with a Villain fold, win with hitting the draw or lose if you miss.
If we use implied odds/pot odds to guide our play in these scenarios, draws are amazing to get.

#28 May 16th, 2020, 6:06 PM

Originally Posted by pendulabgd

I'm enjoying in the way of deep explanation from Collin and Katie when is needed, when is not they slowly introduce the ideas and you can feel how well designed the course is. Pure example is how they introduce bluffing through draws.
One of the most important thing in this course is number of played hands that are hardest to play and explaining the idea behind the plays and most important that everything is based on science and odds.

I highly recommend to everyone, even if you are experienced player I'm sure that you will find something to expand your strategy.

Thanks very much! The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

Originally Posted by iveyfan

I think this is one of the most counter-intuitive ideas when playing poker and was certainly something I did wrong until recently. Most people think neutral or passive actions give them time to hit their draw and so, it's better to take one of those actions.
In reality, that leaves two options: hit the draw and probably win, or miss the draw and lose.
If we play draws aggressively, it leaves three options: win with a Villain fold, win with hitting the draw or lose if you miss.
If we use implied odds/pot odds to guide our play in these scenarios, draws are amazing to get.

Such a good point that it is a very counter-intuitive!

#29 May 18th, 2020, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

Such a good point that it is a very counter-intuitive!

Bluff as part of the strategy is counter-intuitive in the first place, right?

#30 May 18th, 2020, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by pendulabgd

Bluff as part of the strategy is counter-intuitive in the first place, right?

I agree with this. It might seem like bluffing is throwing money away, but good play definitely involves a bluffing frequency!

#31 May 20th, 2020, 3:11 AM

Excellent chapter, prepares us for the next ...

.

#32 May 22nd, 2020, 4:12 PM

very interesting how to behave in Draws I learned a lot about Draws.
depending on which hand is in a draw and calculating your odds I can try to extract the maximum of my opponent's chips

#33 May 22nd, 2020, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by carmenzu

Excellent chapter, prepares us for the next ...

.

We're so glad you enjoyed it The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

Originally Posted by bruno13xs

very interesting how to behave in Draws I learned a lot about Draws.
depending on which hand is in a draw and calculating your odds I can try to extract the maximum of my opponent's chips

Great to hear this chapter helped you!

#34 May 24th, 2020, 7:31 PM

How to play the draws correctly is one of the important points in poker. The most important question for me. How often in practice do we consider pot odds and implied odds when making a decision with a draw? As it turns out I don’t consider the chances at all.
A large amount of work must now be done to make this a habit.

#35 May 28th, 2020, 1:08 AM

Hi, thank you for the videos. It has been very helpful so far!

I have a question about "playing draws more passively when you have showdown value". This doesn't really make sense to me. If your cards have showdown value, it is logical to me that you should bet more compared to those that do not. And if we bet bigger, we will get more value from those that are below us, and possibly make those with better cards than us fold, right? Won't aggressive play be better most of the time anyways?

Thank you!

#36 May 28th, 2020, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by ronn6583

How to play the draws correctly is one of the important points in poker. The most important question for me. How often in practice do we consider pot odds and implied odds when making a decision with a draw? As it turns out I don’t consider the chances at all.
A large amount of work must now be done to make this a habit.

It's awesome that you're doing the work to make this happen--ideally we should consider this each and every time The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

Originally Posted by donjar

Hi, thank you for the videos. It has been very helpful so far!

I have a question about "playing draws more passively when you have showdown value". This doesn't really make sense to me. If your cards have showdown value, it is logical to me that you should bet more compared to those that do not. And if we bet bigger, we will get more value from those that are below us, and possibly make those with better cards than us fold, right? Won't aggressive play be better most of the time anyways?

Thank you!

Great question! When we talk about showdown value, we mean weaker hands that still have at least a shot of winning if it goes to showdown. While what a showdown value hand means will vary somewhat with every hand/board, it refers to hands like King High and similar. By definition, these are the types of hands that are unlikely to get worse hands to call if we bet (because they will be too weak to call a bet) or achieve the purpose of getting better hands to fold. Playing more passively in these spots allows us the potential to improve our hand cheaply while simultaneously avoiding the risk of unnecessarily turning our hand into a bluff.

In general, yes we will be playing draws aggressively, but times where we have showdown value is one of those rare times where I tend to advocate a little more passivity for the above reasons. Hope this helps The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#37 May 29th, 2020, 3:15 PM

Understanding pot odds has been a strength but I have not been applying it correctly to drawing hands. Reading the chapter and watching the video has crystallised the correct approach and it makes sense more so when you consider your opponents reaction to your play, using the same rationale. The examples of three different starting stacks in the book brings the concept home nicely.

Thankyou.

#38 May 30th, 2020, 7:01 PM

Great chart.

Definitely wish I had seen this earlier in my poker days. I used to overplay draws when I had no fold equity.

The chart with this module is an excellent tool which I will have open for the weekend games

#39 June 4th, 2020, 2:36 AM

Originally Posted by Bobbybones1950

Prior to taking this course I would have folded this hand. I was afraid if i didn't flop the nutz.
Now I consider continuing on looking for draw possibilities. The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/4qrTcLK

Typically I would have folded to the first raiser. After the flop I realize I have a gutshot draw and possible flush. Then my draw looks even better.

Couple weeks ago this never could have happened Great Course Thankyou

VNH congratulations. I think villain was making a mistake in not betting strongly enough thus giving you the necessary implied odds.

#40 June 7th, 2020, 1:11 AM

Thank you very much for this excellent study material, I am getting better at the tables, and I am eager to put into practice everything I am studying. The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#41 June 8th, 2020, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by ammje

Thank you very much for this excellent study material, I am getting better at the tables, and I am eager to put into practice everything I am studying. The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

Happy to hear that Day 10 was helpful to you The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#42 June 11th, 2020, 4:50 PM

This is why i love poker,is you have thsi studied there is no way u can louse at poker.
This is linked to preflop strategy and post flop Cbetting planification.
Iff u have a good plan pre flop, u have studied at least the 12 or 15 flops tipes them you know wish off your proyect are the good ones to raise and play agrasivelly and valance ur monsters hands and wish one you play by X/C wile in odd,because iff you dont plan this you will be disvalanced to,or either bluff to manny draws or bluff few off them,and bouth thingh are bad

#43 June 19th, 2020, 7:16 PM

I made the draw chart on page 52 my desktop wallpaper, makes for easy reference during games!

#44 June 19th, 2020, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by johnnylawford

I made the draw chart on page 52 my desktop wallpaper, makes for easy reference during games!

Wow now that is impressive dedication, johnny! Way to go! The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#45 June 29th, 2020, 1:36 AM

Accordingly, the draws must be played aggressively by default,
particularly when you will not win in the match
no improvements.
I usually play it like this especially for flush draw.

#46 June 29th, 2020, 1:42 AM

I appreciate all the help it�s nice knowing when it�s favorable to chase.

#47 June 29th, 2020, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by landino67

I appreciate all the help it�s nice knowing when it�s favorable to chase.

Yes and remember to play the draws aggressively if it all possible based on the situation The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

#48 July 7th, 2020, 4:01 PM

One of the biggest mistakes that are made pre-flop is hand selection. How a draw should be played depends on many factors: number and type of opponents, the appearance of the board, relative position and strength of the draw.

#49 July 20th, 2020, 8:59 PM

I learned a lot how to play the draw with this course. now i will not make mistakes as i was doing, whenever i had a hand considered strong i would go in there without thinking. but I learned a lot now

#50 July 22nd, 2020, 11:01 PM

So in this lesson I learned should play my draw cards betting or raising , get a default agressively. Against tight players I should just call with a flush or straight draw since the vilain didn't often have the so strong hand defending. Already at the Pot multiway is good I have a gutshot straight draw on the button or if when there more that four players had checked or showed up weakness, semi-bluff
even your weakest draws or when dosen't shearched to protect his hand, I can hit and try get the nuts to win the pot on the river. Well I hope have gotten understood.

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The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

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