Just Can't Win

I seem to be having a consistent problem with my poker games. I play by the 'small ball' poker concept instructed by Daniel Negreanu, and see a lot of flops because of it. The aggressive nature of this play style even allows me to win some hands with absolutely nothing, but I always have the same problem.
There is always that one player that always seems to have a better hand than me. Not long ago I was playing a game and this scenario popped up 5 times in this single game, and all with the same opposing player. I had a monster hand that I'm more than confident enough will win the pot for me, so as I continually raise and they call, I'm sitting there thinking: I've got you this time. Yet this player always pulls out of their hat a hand that is just slightly better than mine.
This frustrating chain of events has happened so often, in so many separate games, and with several different opponents that I'm thinking it can't just be coincidence or bad luck. Either I'm missing something here, or they know some trick to pulling out winning hands that I don't (or do I really just have the worst luck in the world). Someone out there has got to have some advice of how to spot and avoid this infuriating trap. This is driving me insane. Help!

well i have a solution (mayble) fold fold fold. trust me, it helps.

You can post some of those hands in the HA section and get some feedback. Maybe you are not being as aggressive as you should, or maybe the hands you think are monsters are not.

Which hands are these which you think are monsters? It sounds like you're shipping or calling a shove when beat. You need to really learn how to fold post flop and getting out of your head that a high pocket pair is good enough to win just because it was a fav pre flop. I'm assuming you're referring to your aces,kings etc being cracked by suited connectors or something?

As for your theory - no online poker isn't rigged (if thats what you mean) and you "might" be running bad, but if you are consistently losing like you say, then it's a massive leak in your game as opposed to these players pulling out miracle cards. It most likely doesn't sound like a coincidence nor bad luck, just bad play from you in my opinion - and I'm not trying to be rude, just being blunt and honest.

Best tip I can give is you have to let go of some monster hands pre flop if the board is dangerous, don't ever get to attached to top pairs. At the end of the day, it's only one pair and when there are draws on a board you should be willing to let go..

ps: What are you classing as a monster hand when the flop comes?

Several examples of the hands I'm referring to would be say I get two pair on the flop, which turns into a full house on the turn. I've got this, right? Wrong! The other players has an even bigger full house than me with two pair in their hand (not on the table). As far as I know, there is no way to predict that happening, but I fall for it every time.
Another example would be a similar situation but I have a flush this time on the turn. The opposing player somehow manages to pull out an even bigger flush (usually on the river, and have been calling consistently up till now).
Are they playing recklessly and getting lucky? Or do they know something I don't know?

make them fold be AGRESSIVE if u think u have best hand on the flop:icon_sunn

You're probably just a big ball of implied odds and people cant wait to get into a pot with you. Esp. is you're raising small PF its cheap for them to get in a hand with you.

Small ball is pretty much useless though unless you're esp good at hand reading and adjusting to your opponents. It will also prevent you from getting max value a lot of the time, esp at the micros.

You playing tournys or cash games?

ArokhX said:

Several examples of the hands I'm referring to would be say I get two pair on the flop, which turns into a full house on the turn. I've got this, right? Wrong! The other players has an even bigger full house than me with two pair in their hand (not on the table). As far as I know, there is no way to predict that happening, but I fall for it every time.
Another example would be a similar situation but I have a flush this time on the turn. The opposing player somehow manages to pull out an even bigger flush (usually on the river, and have been calling consistently up till now).
Are they playing recklessly and getting lucky? Or do they know something I don't know?

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You should really post a couple of those examples in the HA section using the hand converter. You will get way more feedback and help from members who know what they are doing.
It does sound as if you are not being aggressive enough and letting them get there, but no way to tell for sure without a hand history.

#1 - A lot of people miss this - Daniel Negreanu's Small Ball tactics are pretty much for deeper stacks - not starting stacks. You shouldn't expect to play small ball from beginning to end but need to know where it is appropriate.

#2 - A lot of people miss this - Daniel Negreanu's Small Ball tactics means being able to play post flop like a demon - not getting lucky.

#3 - A lot of people miss this - Daniel Negreanu's Small Ball tactics means playing position, raising, repping, pot odds, and especially opponent selection, etc - not just seeing a flop.

#4 - If you have the same guy out playing you 5 out of 5 hands - don't get in hands with him. There will always be someone out there who will play circles around you for a long long time. Know when they are at the table.

#5 - Poker VT sucks.

I watched some of Daniel vs Isildur, Daniel was leading on 3 of the four tables. Then he began to play small ball. A lot of checking on the river instead of raising. Trying to keep the pot low. Isildur began raising and forcing Daniel to give up hands. Small ball does work but you have to change up sometimes. You can't be to predictable especially playing the same players hand after hand. Another thing is you must read the other person, persons. If you keep raising and the keep with you they must have something. If they continue to raise figure if you were in their position what would you raise with. If it can beat your hand then its time to fold your hand.

Small ball is about post flop skills. There are other aspects like stealing blinds, stealing pots with c-bets. All fine and dandy. But unless you have mad post flop skills and are extremely proficient in reading betting patterns and reading other players, I would probably stay away from it. You get in to a lot of marginal situations (as you have found out) and if you don't know where your opponent is with their hand...you are in serious trouble. Knowing your opponents, their tendencies, their hand ranges, know the difference between a value bet and a defensive bet, being able to take away pots, being able to build a pot, being able to control a pot, etc. are key skills when playing small ball. Lastly, it's not about your cards, it's about playing the other persons cards.

Need to practice..here's how: tape an index card over your seat so you can't see your cards. Now you are being forced to play by position and make decisions according to the reads on other players. gl.

juice561 said:

make them fold be AGRESSIVE if u think u have best hand on the flop:icon_sunn

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you want players to fold when you have the best hand?

reverie said:

you want players to fold when you have the best hand?

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YES... you want them to fold when you THINK you have the best hand but can't be sure.

You HOPE they THINK they have the best hand and call with it and you win a bigger pot. If they fold, you may not win as much but your risk of losing to a suckout on the river drops to ZERO.

Less risk = less lost

IMHdonkeyO

LizzyJ,

Have you actually done this....? If so has it helped at all.... Sounds interesting I might try it at ultra small or free stakes.... If you have please post a coment on your experiance with it!


As for the question.... If you are newer to poker (this is the beginners section) I think it is more important to start off at ABC poker. The aggressive style relys too much on you being able to read situations and play very well post flop. This will only come with time and experiance. The "small ball" play should be a tool you carry in your bag but not a staple of how you play... And this type of play is much to advanced for a beginner IMO.

Bring out this tool when you are in a position to be agressive and need to change up from tight play but when you are starting out, learn how to play ABC first then gradually add the aggression into your bag of tricks as otherwise you are just giving your chips away postflop.

juice561 said:

make them fold be AGRESSIVE if u think u have best hand on the flop:icon_sunn

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What? Are you even halfway serious?
You luckboxed that SupTurbo, then made it ITM in the $1K monday (amazing really) & you're suggesting this? Please.. tell me this is a level.

I haven't read the whole thread here, but small ball is no good at the micros, because people do not react to your playstyle. Small ball works when people act on you playing a lot of hands and then THEY play bad hands against you.
In a nutshell, if they do not keep track of you at all, they will just fold when you try to trap them.

I have played small ball at 2NL and it was horrible. I have played it in middle and late parts of tournaments and it worked quite good for me. I now play it in the CC freerolls and it works terrific there!

CistaCista said:

I have played it in middle and late parts of tournaments and it worked quite good for me.

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That is actually a good place for it - get some chips together and you can shift into small ball action.

BTW, re: small ball strategy. No matter what anyone says or feels about it I think it would be a mistake to not learn as much as you can about it. Whether you adopt it or not you are certainly going to run into it and have to deal with it one way or another.

MediaBLITZ said:

That is actually a good place for it - get some chips together and you can shift into small ball action.

BTW, re: small ball strategy. No matter what anyone says or feels about it I think it would be a mistake to not learn as much as you can about it. Whether you adopt it or not you are certainly going to run into it and have to deal with it one way or another.

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I think inevitably at the end of tournaments you have to play some type or variation of small ball. Your not always going to be getting mega hands but people are going to be playing weaker hands.

Fireblade said:

I think inevitably at the end of tournaments you have to play some type or variation of small ball. Your not always going to be getting mega hands but people are going to be playing weaker hands.

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At the end of tournaments (most of them anyways) stacks aren't typically deep enough to be playing 'small ball'. More often than not you're looking at alot of 15-25bb stacks where there's going to be alot of raise > resteal-shove > fold stuff.

It may be worth noting that although Negreanu is a monster winner in live tournaments, he hasn't had anywhere near the same success online. While not proof positive, this does at least suggest small ball is better suited to the kinds of tournaments he plays, which are large buyins with deep stacks. It's also possible that his live opponents are somewhat less aggressive overall than the ones he faces online.