I've got a serious dilemma...

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Lieutenant_OH7

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I have been into poker cashgames and MTTs since a few months, I used to play hold'em with playchips, but that was years ago. I wasn't taking it very serious, but the game suited me well, and I wanted to try it with real money at some point... Took a few years until I really got back into poker, and 4months ago I finally started...

I was succesful in some MTTs, and won 8 of those in a pretty short time. I mainly focused on cashgames though, which seem to suit me a lot more, I realised some time later... Started playing cashgames on a bitcoin poker site (Betcoin), read a good review about it and gave it a try with my very first deposit. Quite some gamblers/fish on there so that helped to make some profit already... I played on 2 other poker providers, one of the few sites only that are legal in my country (Belgium). I got better and more refined in the game as I played cashgames. Since some time I also multi-table which worked well too.
I did loose some money, but got better along the way, more insight into the game etc, so that motivated me to continue...

But now my problem:
I was able to make really nice profits in a short time, like I started with 10$ buy-in in a room, and in the same room I went up to almost 100$, playing some hours. That convinced me I could really make good money with poker, and the possibilities had to be even much better than this, since I was still playing at really low stakes... But the problem was I seemed to loose a lot of that money in the end... Did I play too loose or overconfident when I got a big stack? Was I lucky and did I think I was already that great because I made great profit, and kept on making mistakes, after those upswings?
I think it's a combination of all those things...

But the surprising (or not surprising) thing was that this pattern seemed to repeat itself later on, in a very similar way. I won a lot in a period like a day, but lost it again sooner or later, and offcourse that frustrated me...
AT some point I made more than 300euros in a day, and that really gave me wings... I was convinced that I could be a professional poker player, and the possibilities had to be much greater than this, in the end...
But even then I couldn't continue and keep those good results day after day... I didn't want to give up and I started again on the bitcoin site, playing up to 3 tables at a time, and they offer a nice VIP system with rakeback.
It did seem to going better than before, even with some downswings.
At times I did get mad and frustrated on bad beats and bad luck, cuz I thought I was so unlucky at times (I do have similar problems in life in general). But I still wanted to continue, thinking I also learned out of the hands that went wrong...

But so to cut my story short: I would love to be a professional poker player, I really like the game... For example the strategic thinking, the learning and evolving, the fact that you can play it from wherever you live, at any time. That you are not dependant on other people or a boss, etc... I feel like I really need it, to give me the (financial) freedom I'm looking for in life. I do have an income now, so in theory I don't need the money... I don't have a job though, and a "regular job" is just not an option for me (anymore). I was so euphoric when my earnings began to be really good playing cash games, and at another time when it went bad, I cried of pure sadness...
I don't want to give up that dream yet, thinking I really have the talent for this game, and already proven that I can do it, despite the losses...
But I can't deny that it's not really good for me if bad beats do get me mad, and my play might suffer under that too. Or the financial losses if I couldn't get my earnings and positive balance stable... In my opinion it's easier to find that balance though when you play games, rather than tournaments. I also feel that there is more luck involved in tournaments...

I do think the only way to find out for sure is maybe to give it once last chance, and do my very best to get it going... I gave myself a period of at least a few weeks now to consider, what the best thing is to do, because this is really a difficult situation for me. So I stopped playing for now...
It's quite important to me because if I could be a poker pro, it could really give me the life I want... That I can live independent (now living with my parents still), build something up and have the money in life to make plans etc... (Now I just have a limited income). Thats why I don't want to give up that quickly, but maybe you guys have a different opinion. At this moment I just wouldn't know what else to do if I had to forget about poker. So only if I'd see it really is not for me, or does not work out, I'd stop...
I'm also thinking, if poker is not for me, what do these pros have or can do what I could not? That might sound a bit arrogant, but I really believe I have all the skills to be a great player... I might not have nerves of steel, and I do have my flaws, but so does everyone, I think.

All ideas, advice or inspiration is appreciated!:smile:
 
dino

dino

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well, I wish you good luck in your journey.

Then, start thinking about your wicknes and strength in poker.
What is what, and which is biggest wicknes in your game, and what is your strength.
If you think that you can do it, then what is your plan if you can and what is your plan if you can't?

If you apply good BRM, then you can do it.
If you apply yourself to study your wicknes and limit them, then you probably can find yourself to be better player and more profitable.
The road you choose it's tough one.
It's not for everyone.
But, if you're lucky enough and like what you do, playing poker, and if you're young, still with your parents, then why not, you don't have nothing to lose.

i wish you good luck.
 
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Lieutenant_OH7

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well, I wish you good luck in your journey.

Then, start thinking about your wicknes and strength in poker.
What is what, and which is biggest wicknes in your game, and what is your strength.
If you think that you can do it, then what is your plan if you can and what is your plan if you can't?

If you apply good BRM, then you can do it.
If you apply yourself to study your wicknes and limit them, then you probably can find yourself to be better player and more profitable.
The road you choose it's tough one.
It's not for everyone.
But, if you're lucky enough and like what you do, playing poker, and if you're young, still with your parents, then why not, you don't have nothing to lose.

i wish you good luck.

My wickedness? You probably mean "weakness" ;) but Thanks for the advice, I posted this on many forums to get as much opinions and information as possible, in my poker and in life in general ;)
 
tigeraxl

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i encourage you to play mtt and play less hours at cash tables .Maybe you play well but perhaps you don t know when to leave .Make the profit ,observe the table (if is profitable or not) then make a schedual when to leave ,you may need to breathe ,digest the game .
 
tigeraxl

tigeraxl

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My wickedness? You probably mean "weakness" ;) but Thanks for the advice, I posted this on many forums to get as much opinions and information as possible, in my poker and in life in general ;)

I usualy take some good advices from Kid poker ,in the last days it happen to get in really bad bets .
P.S. ctrl+f ,you are the only one who said wickedness :D ,maybe you need some rest .
 
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Ashutosh Bhosale

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My wickedness? You probably mean "weakness" ;) but Thanks for the advice, I posted this on many forums to get as much opinions and information as possible, in my poker and in life in general ;)



Hi,
this has happened with me too.
Actually, the thing is, when you win a lot of cash, compared to your buyin, you tend to become overconfident and want more, unknowingly. So the solution is to STOP RIGHT THERE. When you have accumulated enough, just stop. Try to force your mind to stop and not yield to your desire of playing more. Also, I suggest playing at multiple tables and exit a table once you've accumulated enough chips. This reduces the chance of making wrong calls due to impatience. Wish you good luck!
 
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Lieutenant_OH7

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Здравствуйте я думаю что нужно сдерживать свои эмоции! Это раз чтобы всегда была свежая голова! Второе это всегда нужно анализировать свои ошибки где ты их сделал! Третье это читать книги по покеру или слушать Аудио книги!И Четвёртое это надо на форуме обсуждать все ситуации которые часто встречается в покере!!!

Lol, has it not appaered to you that this is a forum where people speak/write in English? It might help so that people can understand you...
 
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Lieutenant_OH7

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I usualy take some good advices from Kid poker ,in the last days it happen to get in really bad bets .
P.S. ctrl+f ,you are the only one who said wickedness :D ,maybe you need some rest .

You mean from Daniel Negreanu?
 
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Lieutenant_OH7

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For what it's worth, here are some of my recent stats:

Total Games: 505 game(s)
doubt (disconnected) 1 game(s)
Games Won: won 127 of 505 (25%)
Win/Loss: won m฿118,07
Raise/Call Ratio: 0.4 (85 raises, 228 calls)
Call/Fold Ratio: 0.6 (228 calls, 365 folds)
Bet/Check Ratio: 0.8 (123 bets, 160 checks)
Flops: saw 229 of 505 (45%)
 
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karl coakley

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For what it's worth, here are some of my recent stats:

Total Games: 505 game(s)
doubt (disconnected) 1 game(s)
Games Won: won 127 of 505 (25%)
Win/Loss: won m฿118,07
Raise/Call Ratio: 0.4 (85 raises, 228 calls)
Call/Fold Ratio: 0.6 (228 calls, 365 folds)
Bet/Check Ratio: 0.8 (123 bets, 160 checks)
Flops: saw 229 of 505 (45%)

From those general stats, your success was just luck. You are playing 45% of the hands (way too much), calling way too much rather than raising, and your win % (25%) is low. This shows a big leak. When you run good you are going to make a profit, but when you run bad you are going to have big losses. You are going to have big swings which you don't want.

Aside from your holes, the problem with "going pro" is that you need to find a level you can beat and win enough to live off of. Most people can't do this. Beating a level doesn't mean you win sometimes lose others or that you have big wins, big loses. It means you constantly win. Not a day, week or month, all the time. 80% of the players can't even "beat" .01/.02 micros. The 20% that can beat the level don't make enough money at that level to live off of so they play for enjoyment. As you move up it becomes more difficult to beat a level. For example if you take 1000 players, only 20% are winning at .01/.02 (200 players). At the next level of those 200 players only about 40 are winning players, and so on as you move up.

Before trying to make a living off poker, you should play for the entertainment. You start off slowly supplementing your income with your winnings. Once you can go 6 months winning more than you are making with a job, I think it would be time for a career change. Jumping in head first rarely works.
 
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Lieutenant_OH7

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From those general stats, your success was just luck. You are playing 45% of the hands (way too much), calling way too much rather than raising, and your win % (25%) is low. This shows a big leak. When you run good you are going to make a profit, but when you run bad you are going to have big losses. You are going to have big swings which you don't want.

Aside from your holes, the problem with "going pro" is that you need to find a level you can beat and win enough to live off of. Most people can't do this. Beating a level doesn't mean you win sometimes lose others or that you have big wins, big loses. It means you constantly win. Not a day, week or month, all the time. 80% of the players can't even "beat" .01/.02 micros. The 20% that can beat the level don't make enough money at that level to live off of so they play for enjoyment. As you move up it becomes more difficult to beat a level. For example if you take 1000 players, only 20% are winning at .01/.02 (200 players). At the next level of those 200 players only about 40 are winning players, and so on as you move up.

Before trying to make a living off poker, you should play for the entertainment. You start off slowly supplementing your income with your winnings. Once you can go 6 months winning more than you are making with a job, I think it would be time for a career change. Jumping in head first rarely works.

Interesting... Well I assume you know what you're talking about, and I'm not expierenced myself so I can't really deny what you're saying. However I think it wasn't just luck what I had there (ok for a part yes), cuz it were more than 500 hands... And for the hands I play, I don't really play trash hands, only play lower cards when I get suited connectors for example or a pair... Only problem might be that I don't like to throw away chips, when im on the blinds, and someone raises...
But ok maybe this is not so bad news for me to know... Maybe a coach could help me fix these flaws, and then I could actually improve in a way that really makes the difference :) It might cost a bit but in the end will make me a much bigger profit ;)
Cuz I think I want to specialize in cash games, it really seems to fit me well.

Thank you
 
thetick33

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From those general stats, your success was just luck. You are playing 45% of the hands (way too much), calling way too much rather than raising, and your win % (25%) is low. This shows a big leak. When you run good you are going to make a profit, but when you run bad you are going to have big losses. You are going to have big swings which you don't want.

Aside from your holes, the problem with "going pro" is that you need to find a level you can beat and win enough to live off of. Most people can't do this. Beating a level doesn't mean you win sometimes lose others or that you have big wins, big loses. It means you constantly win. Not a day, week or month, all the time. 80% of the players can't even "beat" .01/.02 micros. The 20% that can beat the level don't make enough money at that level to live off of so they play for enjoyment. As you move up it becomes more difficult to beat a level. For example if you take 1000 players, only 20% are winning at .01/.02 (200 players). At the next level of those 200 players only about 40 are winning players, and so on as you move up.

Before trying to make a living off poker, you should play for the entertainment. You start off slowly supplementing your income with your winnings. Once you can go 6 months winning more than you are making with a job, I think it would be time for a career change. Jumping in head first rarely works.

i only disagree on one thing here that is the saying he plays too much maybe is his style i like it cause for me the higher flops i see the more i win period. I can play any style though cause have put in the time.

THE WEAKNESS if you are playing all those hands you got to seriously mix up your play and game you have to mix your bets position all of it if you want to be successful this is not easy. Also the limping? Ya thats gonna own you on bad swings. You got to get respect from the table you have to be able to steal at times. Playing waiting doesnt work unless running well. What do you do when you run two months unwell? Same style youll lose your house
 
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karl coakley

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Yeah Tick, I know what you are saying. I mix my game from tight to loose and everything in the middle but I never play 45% of the hands and only win 25%. That's all bad. Add in all the passive play and I don't see positive things down the road. I would want to see 45% with a high bet and raise %.

But, I never ment to beat him up about his game, just pointed out a leak that jumped out.

Being a pro does not mean you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank, it simply means you can constantly make enough profit to pay your living expenses. You can and often should slowly work up to this. There is nothing wrong with winning enough to pay for vacations, car payments, utilities, rent, ext... And improve your quality of life with out gambling every thing you have, waiting for variance to rear its head causing you to crash and burn.
 
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namowrednow

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Poker is invariably a game of swings--highs and lows. It sounds like you were perhaps too emotionally invested in a game that requires a degree of emotional detachment in order to cope with variance. I think if you try looking at it as an investment, starting small and not looking to reach your dream of becoming a poker pro overnight, you'll be headed in the right direction.

Jeremy
 
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Wow love this post and the insights on it. Clears alot up for me and how I have been playing :)
 
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BreakTheBeard

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You should definitely keep your day job as you strive to become a pro player. You play will differ drastically as you go from playing for fun, to go to playing for rent.
 
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You should definitely keep your day job as you strive to become a pro player. You play will differ drastically as you go from playing for fun, to go to playing for rent.

Lol, read my story first, I said I don't have a job and neither do I want one... I'm looking now for a coach, specialized in cash games... I'm sure he will help me to find and fix all those "leaks" in my game ;) and turn me into a great player.
 
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karl coakley

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Lol, read my story first, I said I don't have a job and neither do I want one... I'm looking now for a coach, specialized in cash games... I'm sure he will help me to find and fix all those "leaks" in my game ;) and turn me into a great player.

Well I wish you the best of luck, coach or not (plenty of threads on a coach). Because I see it rarely posted I'll suggest specifically how its done. If you do not have the discipline to follow this you will not have success as a pro (or profitable) player.

Most players can't see the "forest through the trees" which is why they can't actually make a successful money management strategy. Generally the thought is I need to win a bunch so I can pay my bills, the opposite is true and this mind set ultimately exposes you to too much risk and leads to a bad session or two costing most of your bankroll.

Lets start from the end and work backwards.

I want to make 600.00 a month to pay my car payment. I have a 100.00 bankroll. I know I can beat .01/.02 NL and that is what I'll play. Here's how I do it:

1. I add 1/3 for variance.

600.00 x 1/3 (200.00) + 600.00 = the amount I need to profit 800.00.

This is what I need to win in any given month to be able to remove 600.00 from my account. While the 30% will cover variance, it should also grow my bankroll. This is NOT extra and is not removed regardless of how well my month goes.

2. Divide the amount I need to profit (800.00) by how many days I'm going to play. For this example I'll play every day (30) so:

800.00 / 30 (days) = 26.66. This is the amount I need to win every day.

3. Divide the amount I need to win every day by how many sessions I want to play. Personally, I like to keep my sessions short and together (I have a life) so I'll just play in the evenings from 6pm -11pm. I'm going to play 4 sessions.

26.66 / 4 = 6.66 (amount I need to win every session).

So, I can sit down, open 9 tables (fits comfortably on my screen), and grind out 6.66, then quit the session. Wash, rinse, repeat for 4x in 5 hours, and I will cover my 600.00 car payment with little effort, little risk, and little time.

This is where the term "grinder" comes from. I could buy into a higher limit and try to play bigger pots to win the 6.66 (session amount) or 26.66 (daily amount) but I expose myself to more risk. I would just slowly grind out the profit for the day at the lowest limit possible, with the worst players possible.

This actually takes very little skill. You are playing against bad players and I think most people (even novice players) feel they can win 6.66. The real problem is that most people don't have the discipline to quit. Its boring and you must stick to your management program. You don't get to "move up" because you don't need to. You don't get to play a MTT. You have to grind out your session amount and call it a day, but it will make you successful. Very little time and effort, you just have to withdraw your 150.00 every week.


An easy 600.00.


The problem is that this is not enough to live off of and the math skews as you use bigger amounts. For example:

If I need 1500.00, I would add my 1/3 (500) and need to win 2000.00 a month. Divide that by 30 (66.66) days, divided by 4 sessions (16.66). Even beating the level, 16.66 is a lot to sit down and win consistently with a 2.00 max buy in. I just don't think that happens meaning you have to move up in levels. Unless you are beating that level, the more you move up the more difficult the wins are and most people fail.

This is where your skill level caps what you can win. Of course, you could add more sessions through the day which will bump the monthly amount, but you still won't get to something like 2000.00 even adding more sessions.

This is a beginning skeleton to help you get started. You can scale it and adjust it as your game dictates.
 
A

alt888

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For what it's worth, here are some of my recent stats:

Total Games: 505 game(s)
doubt (disconnected) 1 game(s)
Games Won: won 127 of 505 (25%)
Win/Loss: won m฿118,07
Raise/Call Ratio: 0.4 (85 raises, 228 calls)
Call/Fold Ratio: 0.6 (228 calls, 365 folds)
Bet/Check Ratio: 0.8 (123 bets, 160 checks)
Flops: saw 229 of 505 (45%)

Playing far too many hands. Pay attention to position. And study, LOTS. :) GL
 
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Lieutenant_OH7

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Playing far too many hands. Pay attention to position. And study, LOTS. :) GL

Thanks, I've already adjusted that in my game ;). All the time I was succesful and had great runs, I think they overshadow a bit the mistakes I still make... I feel like I'm too hungry and opportunistic in my game... I'll take some more time to study, before I would even go play higher stakes or play multiple tables again, I think I might've put too much hay on my fork... And I've got a coach now which I hope that will make me a much better player :rolleyes:
 
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