Interesting Spot

M

Minikiwi9

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Total posts
41
Chips
0
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/1qfQruX

Here is an interesting spot I ended up in a 9 person SNG, V who shoved was a 44, 28 (VPIP, PFR) with about 50 hands at this point, so I figured I was ahead of most of his range, however decided to make a lay down, I think it is a close spot and am curious to hear others thoughts. Let me know what you think!!:cool:
 
TheDude6622

TheDude6622

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Total posts
2,348
Awards
2
Chips
0
Definitely is a close spot. For a VPIP that high and being 5 handed at this point, it would have to be a call.
 
M

Minikiwi9

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Total posts
41
Chips
0
I think you are right, I ran it through ICMIZER and isn't even close, (It won't let me Screenshot but it was +.97 according to Nash) me trying to justify myself, is if I lose the flip I'm more even with the shorter stacks, possibly being harder to make the money, where as if I flop here and stay a big stack and can possibly chip up, but I don't think my argument outweighs the +EV from making this call.:(

Definitely is a close spot. For a VPIP that high and being 5 handed at this point, it would have to be a call.
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Total posts
1,317
Awards
3
Chips
2
I agree that it's best to make an odds call against the big blind as played.

Ideally though, we shove or fold facing the initial raise because the effective stack is under 10bb.

So I would fold the 55 here, and once you call initially then call off the shove because of odds and the stats you have.
 
M

Minikiwi9

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Total posts
41
Chips
0
Ok yes that really makes sense, I am going to run the spot Preflop and see how close that is for shove vs fold since it is about 10 BB effective. Thanks for your thoughts Collin, I saw your post about SNG's as I've been exploring recent SNG materials as I've been grinding, if you have any recommendations/thoughts I will be on here more often.. Thanks a bunch seriously. I'm really working to increase my edge in this game
I agree that it's best to make an odds call against the big blind as played.

Ideally though, we shove or fold facing the initial raise because the effective stack is under 10bb.

So I would fold the 55 here, and once you call initially then call off the shove because of odds and the stats you have.
 
thetick33

thetick33

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Total posts
1,888
Awards
4
Chips
0
i would have tossed bascially your a couple spots away from money.....

you have a good stack is small stacks and you are out of position.... so is the aggro but that is ok....
 
eetenor

eetenor

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Total posts
2,163
Awards
2
Chips
169
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/1qfQruX

Here is an interesting spot I ended up in a 9 person SNG, V who shoved was a 44, 28 (VPIP, PFR) with about 50 hands at this point, so I figured I was ahead of most of his range, however decided to make a lay down, I think it is a close spot and am curious to hear others thoughts. Let me know what you think!!:cool:


Thank U 4 Posting

I am watching this video one decision at a time from your perspective.

Seat 7 min raises off of a 7 BB stack this is not a standard North American player play. Why do it? Was the player from outside the U.S.?

What tendencies did the 3 players left to act have that would make 7 think they could steal with this sizing?

If not a steal what range would 7 not need to protect vs what could be a semi wide call by BB.

Were your villains flatting BB wider?

What were 7's tendencies?
AGG- Passive TAG LAG?

Was this outside of their normal play?

Is your player pool making this raise with nut type hands only, trying to get calls?

If that is 7's range nut hands easy fold for U.

If 7 will do this with all AX this would be a great time to use flopzilla and do the maths.

You may want to fold if the math is close if you are the table boss. If you are not you should shove.

Ok let's see what you did.

Ouch Ouch Ouch Ouch

Ok do not take that personally. It is meant to be entertaining.

I have only seen the call no flop. I know you fold by your post.

You call, there is 5 BB in pot 7 has 5 BB. If we bet 5BB -7 gets 2-1 on a call that means 7 should call with a wide range here.

If we check the flop 7 gets to bet everything and we have no idea if we are ahead or behind unless we smack the flop hard.
If 7 checks the flop and paint comes on the turn we again have no idea where we are in the hand. 7 could check hoping you catch up.

So when we are learning poker we want to simplify our decisions post flop. Calling here does not do that.

Also when we are playing in SNG's we want to keep our stack to use to leverage other stacks. We can ill afford to put 450 in a pot and then fold on the flop getting 2-1 ourselves.

That is why we range 7, then either shove or fold depending on that range. It simplifies our play.
The min raise is a data point. We compare that to 7's normal play. The player pools normal play and decide if it helps us to estimate the range correctly.
Flopzilla really helps here to get the proper math solution when we have a good estimate of 7's range.

Thanks again for sharing your hand. It takes real courage to put yourself out there.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
M

Minikiwi9

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Total posts
41
Chips
0
Ooh man I had to read this a couple times, thanks for making me think.

I do think it's really good for me to put myself out there, although times it can be embarrassing the growth is worth it in my opinion.

Seat 7 was playing a rather standard ABC style game, I assume he was north American but not 100% sure.

Honestly my thoughts are he min raised stole a hand that he was just a bit to scare to jam all in with, so I'm thinking a range like K8-K5 maybe a weak Axo possibly some Axs? Q9-Q7, but I could be way off in my range analysis with that. Given this analysis it seems like a no brainer to jam but I'm mainly ranging him with this since he folded, even with such good odds coming to him after his raise and my call he elected to fold I have to assume it is somewhere around the range above, or maybe he was just trying a steal with any two, though given the stats of opponents following him that isn't a very sound idea.

In game (since I'm sure I didn't give it as much thought as needed) I'd assume he would be min raising with some monsters hoping to get called/raised as he was, though this time clearly was not the case.

Was def a fun pre flop spot, I'm sure in my review today I can find some more XD:D.

After a lot of reflective with this hand, I think Jamming was the best initial play, though just mucking the 55 preflop would make sense as I will have lots of stealing opportunities as the big stack with the ICM bubble lurking

Thank U 4 Posting

I am watching this video one decision at a time from your perspective.

Seat 7 min raises off of a 7 BB stack this is not a standard North American player play. Why do it? Was the player from outside the U.S.?

What tendencies did the 3 players left to act have that would make 7 think they could steal with this sizing?

If not a steal what range would 7 not need to protect vs what could be a semi wide call by BB.

Were your villains flatting BB wider?

What were 7's tendencies?
AGG- Passive TAG LAG?

Was this outside of their normal play?

Is your player pool making this raise with nut type hands only, trying to get calls?

If that is 7's range nut hands easy fold for U.

If 7 will do this with all AX this would be a great time to use flopzilla and do the maths.

You may want to fold if the math is close if you are the table boss. If you are not you should shove.

Ok let's see what you did.

Ouch Ouch Ouch Ouch

Ok do not take that personally. It is meant to be entertaining.

I have only seen the call no flop. I know you fold by your post.

You call, there is 5 BB in pot 7 has 5 BB. If we bet 5BB -7 gets 2-1 on a call that means 7 should call with a wide range here.

If we check the flop 7 gets to bet everything and we have no idea if we are ahead or behind unless we smack the flop hard.
If 7 checks the flop and paint comes on the turn we again have no idea where we are in the hand. 7 could check hoping you catch up.

So when we are learning poker we want to simplify our decisions post flop. Calling here does not do that.

Also when we are playing in SNG's we want to keep our stack to use to leverage other stacks. We can ill afford to put 450 in a pot and then fold on the flop getting 2-1 ourselves.

That is why we range 7, then either shove or fold depending on that range. It simplifies our play.
The min raise is a data point. We compare that to 7's normal play. The player pools normal play and decide if it helps us to estimate the range correctly.
Flopzilla really helps here to get the proper math solution when we have a good estimate of 7's range.

Thanks again for sharing your hand. It takes real courage to put yourself out there.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
eetenor

eetenor

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Total posts
2,163
Awards
2
Chips
169
Ooh man I had to read this a couple times, thanks for making me think.

I do think it's really good for me to put myself out there, although times it can be embarrassing the growth is worth it in my opinion.

Seat 7 was playing a rather standard ABC style game, I assume he was north American but not 100% sure.

Honestly my thoughts are he min raised stole a hand that he was just a bit to scare to jam all in with, so I'm thinking a range like K8-K5 maybe a weak Axo possibly some Axs? Q9-Q7, but I could be way off in my range analysis with that. Given this analysis it seems like a no brainer to jam but I'm mainly ranging him with this since he folded, even with such good odds coming to him after his raise and my call he elected to fold I have to assume it is somewhere around the range above, or maybe he was just trying a steal with any two, though given the stats of opponents following him that isn't a very sound idea.

In game (since I'm sure I didn't give it as much thought as needed) I'd assume he would be min raising with some monsters hoping to get called/raised as he was, though this time clearly was not the case.

Was def a fun pre flop spot, I'm sure in my review today I can find some more XD:D.

After a lot of reflective with this hand, I think Jamming was the best initial play, though just mucking the 55 preflop would make sense as I will have lots of stealing opportunities as the big stack with the ICM bubble lurking

Thank U 4 Responding

Great job reflecting and pursuing growth
I will offer you this thought that has helped me immensely.

Colin the SNG expert stated his first choice was to fold the 55,
When someone with a proven track record states fold even though they don’t tell me why I work very hard to understand why and I have to know very specifically why I would take a different action

Hope this helps
:):)
 
M

Minikiwi9

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Total posts
41
Chips
0
Whats your reasoning for preferring folding vs. Jamming in this case? I would assume preserving stack since they are getting short, wouldn't jamming 55 first time around be the most profitable play? I know for a fact I should be having better reads on the opponents as far as what ranges they are doing X with which would greatly factor in.

It's been good for me to dive deep into this hand, I'm sure I'll find some more soon.

I agree that it's best to make an odds call against the big blind as played.

Ideally though, we shove or fold facing the initial raise because the effective stack is under 10bb.

So I would fold the 55 here, and once you call initially then call off the shove because of odds and the stats you have.
 
tame4g

tame4g

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Total posts
177
Chips
1
As played I'd say this is a fine fold, it's likely that you're at best flipping vs. two overs and at worst you're a 4:1 dog. Maybe occasionally he squeezes with 22-44, but there's a lot more hands which have you crushed. 44 VPIP players can get premium pairs too!
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

Poker Expert
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Total posts
1,317
Awards
3
Chips
2
Whats your reasoning for preferring folding vs. Jamming in this case? I would assume preserving stack since they are getting short, wouldn't jamming 55 first time around be the most profitable play? I know for a fact I should be having better reads on the opponents as far as what ranges they are doing X with which would greatly factor in.

It's been good for me to dive deep into this hand, I'm sure I'll find some more soon.

ICM calculations. If you input the hand into software like ICMizer, I believe it will say it is profitable to shove the 55 in an MTT where we're just looking to accumulate chips, and fold in an SNG where stack preservation is so important.
 
M

Minikiwi9

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Total posts
41
Chips
0
Unless I'm using ICMizer wrong, which I very well could be (I currently only have the free one use trial and don't have much experience with it) I show that in the 5 handed situation I was in it was profitable to shove over the min raise. I don't remember exactly what it was but it was an edge dif that I thought I should be taking. I'll be sure to run it again once I get to my house:confused:
ICM calculations. If you input the hand into software like ICMizer, I believe it will say it is profitable to shove the 55 in an MTT where we're just looking to accumulate chips, and fold in an SNG where stack preservation is so important.
 
Top