Insta-mucking after a declared raise

Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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You will often see players insta-muck their cards immediately after another player declares a raise but before they have announced the raise size. The reasoning seems sound, if you have no intentions of calling any sized raise then what's the problem as long as you're not acting out of turn, right? Wrong. This happened last night in a tournament I played at Foxwoods and I'm sorry to say, I was one of the guilty parties.

Two players in EP limped in, the button thought for a few seconds and announced "Raise". The SB instantly mucked his cards and I followed in the BB. One of the EP limpers protested and stated that the proper etiquette is to wait for the raiser to either announce the size of the raise or push his chips in. The SB insisted that folding before the raiser acted was irrelevant since he had no intention of calling any sized bet. Of course this is wrong and the EP limper had every reason to object, the reason being that by folding before the raise size is declared the raiser has additional information and can now size his bet without regard to the number of opponents he might be facing. Here's an example.

A player with 8bb's limps UTG. The Button with 30bb's would like to isolate this player with KJs but both the blinds have him covered. He announces "Raise" and both blinds fold. He can now confidently put the UTG limper all-in. Very unfair to the limper wouldn't you say? It could also work out in the limpers favor if they limped with a strong hand that might welcome a shove or a large raise. The point is that in your haste to dispense of a bad hand you may in fact be influencing the outcome of the hand or even a tournament and even though you may be next to act you are in fact Acting Out Of Turn by not waiting for the previous player to complete his action.

As a side note this can also (and should be)used to your intentional advantage as the raiser. Say you're in MP and declare a raise with AJo and nobody flinches. You might want to consider a smaller sized raise as you are likely to get one or more callers or a larger raise if the IP players to your left have mucked or look a if they are dying to get the hand over with.

Hope this was helpful and GL at the tables.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

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Good stuff.

I will add, you will get the scoff from the dealer (or should) more so in a tourney than a cash game. I typically will say something to the folders if its a tourney and try to stop the moving action before it gets too far. (Btw the folds are binding so dont try it as an angle)
 
U

UrsinusMaximus

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Thanks for explaining this. I hadn't really considered that the raiser could modify the bet size based on the additional information of whether people acting out of term were going to fold.
 
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