ICM theory and how do you use it?

oriole

oriole

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Total posts
452
Awards
9
Chips
1
I want to learn the math side of poker tournaments and ICM seems like a good start. I understand the basics of Independent Chip Model, but I don't really use it that much in my game.

Those that understand ICM - how important is to use it and what resources can you share?
 
Last edited:
5

5pAce_C0wb0y

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Total posts
283
Awards
2
Chips
0
oriole said:
I want to learn the math side of poker tournaments and ICM seems like a good start. I understand the basics of Independent Chip Model, but I don't really use it that much in my game.

Those that understand ICM - how important is to use it and what resources can you share?
Click to expand...


ICM is a consideration in the later tournament stages. It's pretty important to use when considering your actions as it gives your chips real money value so you can work out whether a move is +$$$ or not. In terms of resources a Google search will find you plenty of reading material. If you want software to work out ICM I recommend Icmizer.
 
mitroff

mitroff

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Total posts
471
Awards
4
Chips
0
On the micro limits (up to $ 10) a lot of players have no idea about ICM.
 
5

5pAce_C0wb0y

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Total posts
283
Awards
2
Chips
0
mitroff said:
On the micro limits (up to $ 10) a lot of players have no idea about ICM.
Click to expand...

Not just the micro limits there are a lot of players at all levels that have no idea. I remember being in a group coaching session with a player who plays $100 plus tournaments who when the coach said taking into account icm considerations... the guy piped up what's ICM. I couldn't believe it but apparently quite common for well of recreational players not to have a clue about ICM.
 
Joe

Joe

99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
8,333
Awards
10
GB
Chips
116
ICM considerations are most important during the bubble and at the final table. Big pay jumps and the FT bubble might also be prudent moments to factor ICM into your decisions.

It is a thorough equation which (at my mathematical level at least) cannot be mentally calculated at the table, but understanding the logic behind it will definitely improve your profits.

A good book I read mentioned how difficult it is to reach an MTT final table and therefore emphasised how important it is to maximise those opportunities once you do get there. ICM thinking will help you do that.

Here are six handy ICM guidelines I picked up during the course of my studies.

1.) ICM always advises to call with tighter ranges in tournaments than in cash games.

2.) The first chip you have is always the most valuable. Doubling your stack never doubles the value of your chips (it is always less).

3.) Correct ICM play has the most impact immediately before and during the bubble.

4.) Correct ICM play usually advises avoid narrow all-ins if there are players left with fewer chips than you.

5.) If you have a medium-sized stack during bubble you should almost always avoid coin flips (or 60/40% all-ins) and fold instead.

6.) Big stacks should often threaten middle stacks during bubble as they usually only call with narrow ranges.

As someone else mentioned, you will not struggle to find reading material online.

Best of luck!
 
Last edited:
S

stil370

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Total posts
733
Awards
1
Chips
76
Tracid said:
ICM considerations are most important during the bubble and at the final table. Big pay jumps and the FT bubble might also be prudent moments to factor ICM into your decisions.

It is a thorough equation which (at my mathematical level at least) cannot be mentally calculated at the table, but understanding the logic behind it will definitely improve your profits.

A good book I read mentioned how difficult it is to reach an MTT final table and therefore emphasised how important it is to maximise those opportunities once you do get there. ICM thinking will help you do that.

Here are six handy ICM guidelines I picked up during the course of my studies.

1.) ICM always advises to call with tighter ranges in tournaments than in cash games.

2.) The first chip you have is always the most valuable. Doubling your stack never doubles the value of your chips (it is always less).

3.) Correct ICM play has the most impact immediately before and during the bubble.

4.) Correct ICM play usually advises avoid narrow all-ins if there are players left with fewer chips than you.

5.) If you have a medium-sized stack during bubble you should almost always avoid coin flips (or 60/40% all-ins) and fold instead.

6.) Big stacks should often threaten middle stacks during bubble as they usually only call with narrow ranges.

As someone else mentioned, you will not struggle to find reading material online.

Best of luck!
Click to expand...

Hi Tracid, I know this goes a while back but what did you mean by #4?
"Correct ICM play usually advises avoid narrow all-ins if there are players left with fewer chips than you."
 
Joe

Joe

99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
8,333
Awards
10
GB
Chips
116
stil370 said:
Hi Tracid, I know this goes a while back but what did you mean by #4?
"Correct ICM play usually advises avoid narrow all-ins if there are players left with fewer chips than you."
Click to expand...

Hi stil370, of course!

So by a 'narrow all-in' here I mean anything that is even close to 50-50 or 60-40.. Basically avoid flips and look to have well over 70% before punting it off... :biggrin:

So, for example, let's say I'm one of five players left and I'm in second place.

That means there are three players with less chips than me..

We're ITM so everyone gets paid but each spot (1st-5th) is a pay jump.

In this situation, if the person in 1st place moves all-in, we shouldn't call off all our chips if it's going to be a narrow all in (50/50 or 60/40 etc) because there are three players with fewer chips than us.

If we call off all our chips and are only a 60% favourite, this means 40% of the time we are going to finish 5th and the players who were below us are all 'laddering up' to 4th, 3rd & 2nd...

We never want to do that!

Does that make more sense now?
 
S

stil370

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Total posts
733
Awards
1
Chips
76
Tracid said:
Hi stil370, of course!

So by a 'narrow all-in' here I mean anything that is even close to 50-50 or 60-40.. Basically avoid flips and look to have well over 70% before punting it off... :biggrin:

So, for example, let's say I'm one of five players left and I'm in second place.

That means there are three players with less chips than me..

We're ITM so everyone gets paid but each spot (1st-5th) is a pay jump.

In this situation, if the person in 1st place moves all-in, we shouldn't call off all our chips if it's going to be a narrow all in (50/50 or 60/40 etc) because there are three players with fewer chips than us.

If we call off all our chips and are only a 60% favourite, this means 40% of the time we are going to finish 5th and the players who were below us are all 'laddering up' to 4th, 3rd & 2nd...

We never want to do that!

Does that make more sense now?
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time Tracid to illustrate the importance of how you should weigh or how to look at the whole board in terms of the number of chips each player has and what it is on the line. Your explanation was clear and concise
On top of that your previous post about ICM was by far the best summary, for me anyway, that I had read. This thread seems almost forgotten but the value is immeasurable! Thanks again and stay safe.
 
Dailon Arroyo Blandon

Dailon Arroyo Blandon

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 22, 2017
Total posts
1,402
Awards
11
CR
Chips
37
Wow ... what information we have here ... this whole "ICM" topic is extremely important ... and it is always good to refresh the knowledge and learn more the details of its correct application ...! so I'll take the time to see it ...!
 
tuku222

tuku222

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Total posts
137
Chips
0
what was the epic move in the history of your poker !! ???
 
Crash Burn

Crash Burn

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 10, 2020
Total posts
659
Awards
4
Chips
0
I use an ICM calculator, but I don't use it for the traditional formula.
 
frank174

frank174

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Total posts
3,188
Awards
22
Chips
155
There is a poker school from CC called winning poker in 30 days its covered in there plus tons of other stuff you should check it out
 
Joe

Joe

99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
8,333
Awards
10
GB
Chips
116
stil370 said:
Thanks for taking the time Tracid to illustrate the importance of how you should weigh or how to look at the whole board in terms of the number of chips each player has and what it is on the line. Your explanation was clear and concise
On top of that your previous post about ICM was by far the best summary, for me anyway, that I had read. This thread seems almost forgotten but the value is immeasurable! Thanks again and stay safe.
Click to expand...


You're more than welcome- don't mention it. :wink:

I can't take credit for the tips, they're just notes from one of the poker books I read, should quote source but not 100% sure.

Either 'Excelling at NLHE' or 'Kill Everyone', pretty sure... :icon_stud
 
K

Kimy5of

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Total posts
4
Chips
0
ICM

Is a mathematical theory used to calculate the total value of a player in a tournament, its acronym as you know it is MCI. It is based on the probability of a player finishing in each position multiplied by the prize amount of that position and those numbers are added up to determine the overall equity of the player.
 
Evan Jarvis

Evan Jarvis

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Total posts
2,014
Awards
4
Chips
1
oriole said:
I want to learn the math side of poker tournaments and ICM seems like a good start. I understand the basics of Independent Chip Model, but I don't really use it that much in my game.

Those that understand ICM - how important is to use it and what resources can you share?
Click to expand...


ICMIZER is the best program to learn this, they have a great feature called sit n go coach which allows you to run all kinds of practice situations.

The main thing with ICM is to realize that people care about cashing and moving up the payout structure. This means you can play MUCH looser during these stages of the tournament.

I talk about this in my MTT video guide as well in the late stages and final table sections. Here is the program https://pokermarket.net/collections/evan-jarvis/products/mtt-video-strategy-guide

And here is a free video that point #3 is about ICM and targeting the right stacks.

Chip distribution is very important and the more simulations you run with ICMizer the more yo will start to see the patterns that keep coming up.
 
TeUnit

TeUnit

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Total posts
4,782
Awards
14
Chips
107
If you have holdem manager, just review your hands using sngwiz, but be sure to adjust the villans ranges. I like to think of the villans range before I see what the wiz is using and then adjust it.
 
blueskies

blueskies

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Total posts
3,646
Awards
9
Chips
319
Tracid said:
Hi stil370, of course!

So by a 'narrow all-in' here I mean anything that is even close to 50-50 or 60-40.. Basically avoid flips and look to have well over 70% before punting it off... :biggrin:

So, for example, let's say I'm one of five players left and I'm in second place.

That means there are three players with less chips than me..

We're ITM so everyone gets paid but each spot (1st-5th) is a pay jump.

In this situation, if the person in 1st place moves all-in, we shouldn't call off all our chips if it's going to be a narrow all in (50/50 or 60/40 etc) because there are three players with fewer chips than us.

If we call off all our chips and are only a 60% favourite, this means 40% of the time we are going to finish 5th and the players who were below us are all 'laddering up' to 4th, 3rd & 2nd...

We never want to do that!

Does that make more sense now?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've folded AQ/AK hands when against big stack raisers with Fold allergy when I can likely fold into the money.

PLaying tourneys is about playing the situation.
 
blueskies

blueskies

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Total posts
3,646
Awards
9
Chips
319
In the last freeroll that I cashed in, I saw these guys with comfortable stacks that could have folded into the money first and then dial up the aggression get taken out with hands like AJ and 88 unnecessarily. Even though it's only like a dollar, you wasted 2 hours just to spew away your stack for $0.

Sure, you wanna go deeper than min cash, but why not get through the bubble first and then play to win.

To be clear, I am talking about people that can fold into the cash. They are risking their stack when there are players who don't even have enough left for 1 big blind. Just gotta wait for those few ppl to lose and you're in. Still they are 3bet, 4bet shoving AJ.
 
Top