I just need some re-assurance or a telling off..?

The Messiah

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just would lk some advice on the following hand,cant find my history for the tounie,new to pokerstars so still getting used to software..posted the same hand in the introduction,doesnt seem to be much traffic there so posting it were it belongs..


the tournament is the $3.30 nlhe 5k gtd march 29th 17:00 WET entrants 1995...got knocked out in 80th for just over $10

blinds 1250,2500...ante is lk 200

i have a stack of 58000

Utg with a stack of 36000, raises to 4650 everyone folds to me in the bb with ace,q off..i flat call..flop is 6,9,q with 2 hearts and a club..i check he bets 5000,i re raise him to 15000..reasoning behind this is that i just want to find out were i am,he flat calls..the turn is a 3 clubs..i bet lk third of the pot,he jams and i call,now my reasoning behind the bet is that i dont want him to catch a heart if hes flushing,,the call is simple really i just feel that hes pot committed and is doing this with anything,including the flush draw..he turns over pocket 6s and criples me..now tbh even writing down what happened in the hand makes me think i could of easily of just folded the hand but this was the play and i suppose i stand by it....had no time to think about it as i let the clock run out by accident when i got a phone call..

now i think the correct way in playing this pot would of been to just flat the flop,check the turn,he would of betted i would of snap called.i would of checked the river and i would of prob called his bet on the river aswell....am i missing something here,just feel looking back on it there was nothing i could really do..?
 
dj11

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Seeing as you got thru 1900 players, you must be able to lay down TPTK hands.

Call it a brain fart or a brain freeze and move on. ;)
 
Matt Vaughan

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Two things:

First, I don't understand his preflop raise. You said blinds are 1,250/2,500, so a min raise should be 5,000 right?

Anyway, second: My decision here would all depend on what I've seen from the player so far. Is he the type to min-raise with a real hand so that he gets called? Or is he trying a very weak blind steal with that raise? After I've figured that out, I must decide what I want to do about it. The thing is that AQ isn't going to play well with many flops, particularly if you think he might be playing a smallish-pair type hand. Your stack is 58k here which puts you at about 23BB, or a little over 10M. This is preeeetty low. Your stack is bigger than his though, so if I think I can push him out a lot of the time, I'm likely shoving here. If not, I might just as soon fold as call.

Again, it all comes down to what I know about my opponent's betting habits. If you know very little about your opponent, I'd err on the side of folding, but that may just be me. It kind of feels like you would have called no matter what happened post flop, so why not shove and hope for the fold, if you're willing to get stacks in anyway?
 
The Messiah

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ya i was wrecked writing the post, was just after a 7hr grind and hadnt eaten probly,drained so to speak..well i had a note on all players and the table in general was playing tight,i saw this player with k,j and q,j and ace x opens in similar fashion in early position so just put him on that,didnt put him on low pocket pairs as i felt its a real weak play imo,,i think i just wanted him to be on what i knew i could beat and not what i couldnt.
i think dg11 is correct in a since that i just lost concentration and didnt no wat to do..i hate these parts of a tournament as its a bit of a toss,but thats the way things are.

i think the right move looking back at it now was just call pre,,check raise flop,check fold turn...?

ya sorry the pre flop raise is obv wrong,,i was just over min raise....5250 or sumtin..
 
Matt Vaughan

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Well, like I said, preflop was very different from what I would do personally. Do you have a grasp on basic M-theory?
 
The Messiah

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yes i understand m theory,sorry for not replying about that...am i just tend to b a bit too tight when it comes to the blinds being so high as i just hope for those big pocket pairs to either slow play or just jam with depending on the situation,i defo need some more work in this final area of these mtts to really get in the money..i disregard ace 10 quite a lot also high connectors like k,q...j,q as i tend to get into unnecessary trouble when i play them so just muck them..,
do you play mtts yourself..?
 
Matt Vaughan

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I don't pretend to be any kind of expert... But yes I play MTTs. My background is (unfortunately) in a lot of freerolls, but all of my studying and play in the past few months has been in $1.10 MTTs and I've done decently there.

For me, the main thing in the last stages of those micro MTTs is that most people tighten up too much to get into the money. So if the position is good and the pot un-opened, or opened weakly, shoving is often a great way to win some big blinds. Especially if antes are significant, which they are in your example.
 
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Just jam pre when you think he opens weak from ep

Well, like I said, preflop was very different from what I would do personally. Do you have a grasp on basic M-theory?

Can you expand on this? I struggle to get my head round M-theory. I get the basics and the theory but I'm lost when it comes to the maths.
 
Poker Orifice

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Seeing as you got thru 1900 players, you must be able to lay down TPTK hands.

Call it a brain fart or a brain freeze and move on. ;)
You'd suggest he laydown TPTK there when villain has <15bb's? wtf? (& Hero has like 23bb's).
It's a totally standard spot.. 'gg'.

OP, bet-sizing seems a bit weird (if I'm reading this right) I mean villain only has what.. ~10k left in stack after calling your check-raise (which = ~1/6th pot).
 
Poker Orifice

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Two things:

First, I don't understand his preflop raise. You said blinds are 1,250/2,500, so a min raise should be 5,000 right?

Anyway, second: My decision here would all depend on what I've seen from the player so far. Is he the type to min-raise with a real hand so that he gets called? Or is he trying a very weak blind steal with that raise?
Villain is raising from UTG with a stack of 14bb's (in other words I doubt he's ever folding & doubt he's ever 'stealing'... (or as you're suggesting 'very weak blind steal')
After I've figured that out, I must decide what I want to do about it. The thing is that AQ isn't going to play well with many flops, particularly if you think he might be playing a smallish-pair type hand. Your stack is 58k here which puts you at about 23BB, or a little over 10M. This is preeeetty low. Your stack is bigger than his though, so if I think I can push him out a lot of the time, I'm likely shoving here. If not, I might just as soon fold as call.
so what are you doing? shoving, folding, calling??? (do you really think you have FE vs. a 14bb stack who's raising from UTG?.. please.. )

Again, it all comes down to what I know about my opponent's betting habits. If you know very little about your opponent, I'd err on the side of folding, but that may just be me. It kind of feels like you would have called no matter what happened post flop, so why not shove and hope for the fold, if you're willing to get stacks in anyway?
These posts help me to understand, "what are they thinking?"
 
The Messiah

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You'd suggest he laydown TPTK there when villain has <15bb's? wtf? (& Hero has like 23bb's).
It's a totally standard spot.. 'gg'.

OP, bet-sizing seems a bit weird (if I'm reading this right) I mean villain only has what.. ~10k left in stack after calling your check-raise (which = ~1/6th pot).

this is what i was thinking,it was not a jam as im not prepared to get called and flip for pretty much the tour,its not my style..the players in general are very poor and i feel i have an advantage over them in general,hence im going to get called a lot of the time with 6s(probably the boottom end of the calling station but still people will call it off),it was cheap for me to see the flop so called,it was just unlucky for the flop to catch both of us.and with the blinds the way they were and how pot committed he was i wasnt going anywere...
of course im able to lay dwn TPTK in tours but this was not one of those situations i feel..

thanks poker orifice for that point,i must really find that hand if possible just for my own sake if nothing else,playing the same tournament again today,il let ye know how i get on and the hand i get knocked out on,yer comments have been very much appreciated so far..
 
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BlueNowhere

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Judging for your flop play you're overestimating your edge on other people.
 
The Messiah

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Judging for your flop play you're overestimating your edge on other people.

Well thats just one hand out of the hundreds that i played in that tour,thousands of what ive played overall,the reason i put it up is that i recognize its not one of my strongest plays hence i am looking for advice on it..i thought thats what this is all about..learning from one another..
 
Jillychemung

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UTG with an M<10 stack opens for a min-raise and UTG stack size is more than 10% of your stack, you have to decide whether UTG has a top 5 hand or not. If you decide yes, fold AQ here, if you decide UTG range is wider then you have to shove AQ here.
 
The Messiah

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only found out that i can only post 7 times a day so might as well make this a long one..ha
ok now i understand what the real meaning behind m theory is now,always knew what it meant but never really implemented it,thanks for clearing this particlar situation..what you have said makes perfect since..well played the same tournament again today,got another bad bad beat today,i sometimes wonder are these people for real calling in these situations.

Dealt [Kc Kh]

I raise 100 to 200
weirdo-x: folds
mapaz08: calls 200
KraKil385: folds
cali36: folds
AJ180: calls 200
Zverev1989: folds
semulyant: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c 9c 7s]
I: check
mapaz08: checks
AJ180: bets 400
I: raise 2925 to 3325 and is all-in
mapaz08: folds
AJ180: calls 2925
*** TURN *** [4c 9c 7s] [3d]
*** RIVER *** [4c 9c 7s 3d] [9d]

He turns over 8,9..ffs lk.
 
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BlueNowhere

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Flop is extremly fishy.

More pre, like 250 or so would be my standard. Then for the love of all that is human, bet the flop.
 
The Messiah

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u seem to be a selective poster.ha.wasnt looking for advice on the above hand,played it correctly,got it in good.the player was an extremely aggressive player so was implementing the "rope a dope" strategy and was betting big when he hit the flop with anything,pushed him knowing there was a good chance of a call and i was right,got it in good thats all that matters,just a Donk outcome...
 
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doomasiggy

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only found out that i can only post 7 times a day so might as well make this a long one..ha
ok now i understand what the real meaning behind m theory is now,always knew what it meant but never really implemented it,thanks for clearing this particlar situation..what you have said makes perfect since..well played the same tournament again today,got another bad bad beat today,i sometimes wonder are these people for real calling in these situations.

Dealt [Kc Kh]

I raise 100 to 200

what were the blinds?

*** FLOP *** [4c 9c 7s]
I: check
mapaz08: checks
AJ180: bets 400
I: raise 2925 to 3325 and is all-in
mapaz08: folds
AJ180: calls 2925

Check-raising here is not good. C-bet, make your overpair look like AK.

*** TURN *** [4c 9c 7s] <font color='red'>3<font face="arial">♦</font></font>
*** RIVER *** [4c 9c 7s 3d] <font color='red'>9<font face="arial">♦</font></font>

He turns over 8,9..ffs lk.

So? He got lucky. It happens sometimes.
 
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BlueNowhere

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Lol at reasoning for justifying checking. Something working once does not make it optimal, managing to get it in good has no bearing on the correct play. W/e though, judging from last comment you're completely results orientated and don't want teaching. if you cant see why this isn't optimal i'm not going to waste my time explaining it, you've been told the correct play, it's up to you how the information is utilised
 
The Messiah

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tbh i dont need advice on this hand because i had a complete read on the situation,was getting it in once he betted,he was playing every second hand when he got to the table and just waited for the time,i was just unfortunate..bluenowherey your taking one hand that ive played and automatically assuming thats my play every time in this situation...i had a DEAD read,im not cribbing about the call even, i love the call in fact, i will take those calls all day..i play differently in different buy in tours..this persons standard was bad hence he would make a bad call...the tables read on me if they were paying any attention was that i was a nit and every1 snap folded to him in the sb.he calls and the bb calls,it was only a min raise but it was enuf to get rid of any ace,rags or anything along those lines..i got the call i wanted....blinds were 50,100 so a min bet was my bet.
 
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doomasiggy

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tbh i dont need advice on this hand because i had a complete read on the situation,was getting it in once he betted,he was playing every second hand when he got to the table and just waited for the time,i was just unfortunate..bluenowherey your taking one hand that ive played and automatically assuming thats my play every time in this situation...i had a DEAD read,im not cribbing about the call even, i love the call in fact, i will take those calls all day..i play differently in different buy in tours..this persons standard was bad hence he would make a bad call...

If we think he's making a bad call regardless why aren't we betting for value?
 
The Messiah

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no i siad if hes got something hes going to make a bet,hes never checking unless drawing..
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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..want to argue, but I don't think its worth it.

if he's aggressive then bet and let him ship.

when you check raise all in you take all bluffs out of his range, so you saying he's aggressive then taking that line makes no sense.

also, if you didnt post that hand for analysis, then you posted it for sympathy imo.

you won't get that here.
 
The Messiah

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..want to argue, but I don't think its worth it.

if he's aggressive then bet and let him ship.

when you check raise all in you take all bluffs out of his range, so you saying he's aggressive then taking that line makes no sense.

also, if you didnt post that hand for analysis, then you posted it for sympathy imo.

you won't get that here.

touche.


but honestly not arguing, just pointing out that the way i played the hand imo was the right way thats all..?but u have cleared why 1 might bet in this situation...tbh im new here and didnt know every hand gets interrogated this much..its good though,im learning everyday,but some people seem to have a chip on there shoulder for one reason or another..
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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touche.


but honestly not arguing, just pointing out that the way i played the hand imo was the right way thats all..?but u have cleared why 1 might bet in this situation...tbh im new here and didnt know every hand gets interrogated this much..its good though,im learning everyday,but some people seem to have a chip on there shoulder for one reason or another..

I guess, but your opinion might be wrong.

not saying anything against you, but listening to others sides will help a lot.

umm Blue's pretty solid, even if he doesn't portray his opinions in the best way to newbies. :rolleyes:

hope this helps.
 
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