I invented a new short stack cash play strategy

Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

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Hi !

I am playing for about a year now and last time playing only freerolls and micro STT & MTT.
I am using Kill Phil strategy (tight when big stack, All in with small stack).

I am very poor in post flop so I refrained from cash play until now.

But now I decided to gradually try micro cash and adapted Kill Phil strategy for this ;)

I buy in with minimal amount and while I have big stack (50BB) I play very tight and not get involved in big pots unless I get nuts or close to them.
If I lose my stack gradually I start to shove with strong hole cards in accordance with Kill Phil charts.
If I win big I take my money out and buy in again with minimal stack.

What do you think of all this ?
I want to find out weak spots.

Until now it looks good (doubled my 3$ initial BR in 4 hours)
 
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BullWink

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This strategy relies HEAVILY on odds. If you play only premium PP (i.e. top 5), and push all-in when you get them, then you might win the first one, but others at the table will quickly catch on and only play you when they also have premium hands. This quickly becomes a coin flip every time you go all in. Winning one coin flip is 50%; Winning two in a row is 25%, four=6%, ten in a row=.1% (one in one thousand). So unless you quit before you loose just one hand you will wipe out all your previous winnings at that table. IMHO, this relies too heavily on odds.
 
Sil3ntness

Sil3ntness

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Maybe try turbos or hyper turbo setups? Eventually the cash game regs will catch on to you playing push or fold.

If they're smart they will take pot to stack ratio into consideration before going heads up with you.
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Take my 2 cents lightly because I'm terrible haha.
 
jazzaxe

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Preflop coin flips work once or twice, but your pattern is easily defensible by not calling your big bets. If you are eager to stack bet, try to get cheap flops with good potential cards Broadway SC, Axs, pocket pairs, nut straight draws. Raising post flop will give you bigger pots and more action.
 
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freestocks

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I've tried similar strategies. They all work in the long run if you play half way decent and avoid tilting.
 
Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

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...

If they're smart they will take pot to stack ratio into consideration before going heads up with you.
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Take my 2 cents lightly because I'm terrible haha.

In micro stakes, there are always someone who cannot tolerate big raise without going AI, so in general all goes well, except that it is terribly boring.

I am also limping in with small pairs and connectors, works well but LAGs don't allow to do this frequently.

This strategy is only for beginning while I learn gradually how to play postflop.
 
Landopope

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The shove/fold strategy is an okay one for microstakes cash but I believe you will be more profitable if you practice this play in micro sngs. Play TAG to start and if you get around 10bbs or so start shoving.

Like others were saying players will catch on to you only playing premium hands and this will just become a repetitive toss-up.

Also most sites dont allow you to comeback to the table with less money than you left with the first time. Maybe yours does but having to find new tables means new opponents that you have no information on.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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I am very poor in post flop so I refrained from cash play until now.
^^Then work on your psot flop play.......

I buy in with minimal amount and while I have big stack (50BB)

50 BB is NOT a big stack. That is still very short.

I play very tight and not get involved in big pots unless I get nuts or close to them.
Which makes you VERY exploitable. Maybe at micros not so much since so many other players suck as well, but you will NEVER be able to handle higher buy in games as you will develop so many bad playing habits.


If I win big I take my money out and buy in again with minimal stack.
^^ Players who do this are generally dicks. You also will not be allowed back on the table you were at. You will also not be liked or welcome back if you use this "strategy" at live home games.

What do you think of all this ?
Read the above.
I want to find out weak spots.
You just explained the biggest one you have..........

Until now it looks good (doubled my 3$ initial BR in 4 hours)
even the blind chicken finds grain.
^^^^
 
Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

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I play very tight and not get involved in big pots unless I get nuts or close to them.
Which makes you VERY exploitable. Maybe at micros not so much since so many other players suck as well, but you will NEVER be able to handle higher buy in games as you will develop so many bad playing habits.

Yes, I am aware of this and mixing in sometimes a limp or minimal raise with top pairs. Which brings me to next question:
How to play top pairs ?
Cause villain can have 2 pairs or set which I cannot know of.
Or he can make a straight or flush which I cannot know for sure ?
 
Sil3ntness

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Yes, I am aware of this and mixing in sometimes a limp or minimal raise with top pairs. Which brings me to next question:
How to play top pairs ?
Cause villain can have 2 pairs or set which I cannot know of.
Or he can make a straight or flush which I cannot know for sure ?

This is when you got to start taking notes on your opponents hand range:

1# Did they limp? Have they limped in the past with strong hands or speculative hands?

2# What position do they play certain hands from?

3# Their preflop betting size, their 3 bet sizing, post flop bet sizing.

4# How do they check/bet their draws and etc?

5# Are they a trap player or do they rush to get it all in on the nuts?

Those are just a handful of things to think about when putting someone on a hand. That way you kind of got a good feel as to whether they flopped 2 pair, a set, top pair top kicker, flush/straight draw etc. If you play in position that should hopefully even give you more information as to what they have. If they check or bet a small amount out of position they could either be weak or checking to see if you hit the flop. If you raise and they 3 bet you on the flop... and they rarely bluff, alarms should be going off in your head to either fold or precede on with caution in hopes of hitting a better hand on the turn/river.

Just watch out for those sneaky guys. Someone had AA UTG and raised 3x or 4x BB can't remember, I call from BB with KQs. I flop KQ two pair. I check out of position (don't want to donkbet) they bet on the flop. I don't snap call, I just slowroll for about 5 seconds and then call. Turn comes and it's another K. So now I have KKKQQ on the turn. I check it again. They shove on the turn with their AA, and I happily snap call with the absolute nuts.
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Long rant above! Anyways: If you are worried about two pairs, sets, straights, flushes, boats, and etc... control the pot to what you are comfortable with. If you only have top pair don't go crazy and start making pot size bets unless you know you have the best hand. If you have an ace high flush, control the pot if the board has two matching cards on it. You don't want to go broke to someone slowplaying a boat or worse quads. Straight flushes are just nasty not much you can do about those.

Also coolers are going to happen. Just deal with them. I had a boat with KKKxx, and someone hit a straight flush on the turn. I have moments where I flop a set on the flop and the other person flopped a bigger set on the flop. It's not common, but those are cooler moments. Rebuy and press on!
 
rogerdelpk

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Kill phill strategy yeah!!!!!!

when you are short there is no other way but to shove, but when you are deep stack the best way of playing is to see a lot of flops and to raise to be able to keep being deep, being tight you will come short very quickly because of the blinds and antes!
 
Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

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Yea, thanks all !

Looks like my strategy will get some heavy adjustments, which is good.
Now I have some direction where to go !
 
fletchdad

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I want to offer an apology to you Fahrenheit451. I mentioned guys who play short stacks and hit and run are usually dicks, and you seem like a very nice guy and sincere in your OP. So my "dick" comment is not directed at you personally.

I am not a fan of SS, and ESPECIALLY hate people who hit and run. Do yourself a favor, and learn how to play a full stack, and dont H+R. It IS a dickish move.
 
L

love that omaha

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Have you thought of trying limit games to improve your post flop play? You are missing out on a lot of value in my opinion by playing Kill Phil strategy - the strategy was developed to minimize the advantage better players have or average players - why not just improve to the point you are the best player at the table?
 
Sil3ntness

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I want to offer an apology to you Fahrenheit451. I mentioned guys who play short stacks and hit and run are usually dicks, and you seem like a very nice guy and sincere in your OP. So my "dick" comment is not directed at you personally.

I am not a fan of SS, and ESPECIALLY hate people who hit and run. Do yourself a favor, and learn how to play a full stack, and dont H+R. It IS a dickish move.

There's a reg on the medium/high stakes cash game table on Carbon named: PosthunnidBBsorGTFO I always get a good laugh seeing that name. I think has a Boondocks avatar (cartoon animation).
---

Yeah I'm not a fan of short stake players as well. Everyone plays cash games differently, but I just feel you miss out on full value when you purposely buy in as a short stack. What happens when you get AA? You are going to double up to 100 BBs? You hit a set and double up to 100 BBs?
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Meh sorry if I'm derailing the thread. Just figure if you can play short stack so well, why not try hyper turbos or turbo SNG / MTTs.
 
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Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

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I want to offer an apology to you Fahrenheit451. I mentioned guys who play short stacks and hit and run are usually dicks, and you seem like a very nice guy and sincere in your OP. So my "dick" comment is not directed at you personally.

I am not a fan of SS, and ESPECIALLY hate people who hit and run. Do yourself a favor, and learn how to play a full stack, and dont H+R. It IS a dickish move.

No offense ;)
If a dick is one who will do anything allowed by the rules to win, then I'm the one
I was nice guy a year ago, but now I'm holdem dick.
But of course, I'll try and learn as much I can, esp. post flop play cause looks like cash games:
1) are much more calm than tournaments
2) depends much more on skill than tournaments
 
Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

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Have you thought of trying limit games to improve your post flop play? You are missing out on a lot of value in my opinion by playing Kill Phil strategy - the strategy was developed to minimize the advantage better players have or average players - why not just improve to the point you are the best player at the table?

I was trying limit holdem when I was starting to learn holdem.
It felt very boring to me, cause I tried to wait for premium hands and slowly lose my stack and when I get them I could not get it back because of limits.

May be it's time to give it a try aagain.
 
fletchdad

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now I'm holdem dick.

I would be careful telling this to people you dont know. If you are in the wrong bar, for example, and say some thing about " I am a holdem dick" someone may come up to you and actually want you to hold theirs.........
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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But of course, I'll try and learn as much I can, esp. post flop play cause looks like cash games:
1) are much more calm than tournaments
2) depends much more on skill than tournaments


Yes, I believe your assessment above is correct, but "calm" depends on the players at your table. Cash is not always calm.......

Post flop can be so much fun if you are thinking and playing the players. It can be devastating as well when you realize you have just been played, but it is all part of that learning process.

And I will stress, if you are in this to make money, learn to play with a full stack. You are only losing value if you dont, unless you cant play well, then you will remain a SSer forever and the micros will be your purgatory.
 
LinkornU

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Basically it's a pretty good strategy except the part about shoving everytime you're short stacked. Because if you start with only 50 bb after losing several hands you're shortstacked and then you feel like you're obliged to go all-in. Mostly like it'll be a flip coin. Besides that it's pretty sad when you have a really strong hand, you opponent is ready to pay and all you have is just 30bb. After you're doubled you'll have just 60bb. Not much.
 
D

Dagano

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I know this strategy profitable, but not too boring??
 
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