I generally do not shove all-in pre-flop. Please read...

texasfoldem · Mar 7, 2020

I call an all-in sometimes depending on what I have. I generally speaking do not shove all-in myself.

Here is a scenario (6 max 50c/$1):

UTG: 3-bets... $3
Next player: 3-bets... $9
Next player: CALLS $9
ME: Holding pocket aces...choices choices!

I believe some people will just shove all-in at my position with AA.
I personally would 3 bet-the last bet... about $30 (or possibly 3-bet + the 9 and 3 = $40ish)

1. The reason I would just 3-bet again is because I know that I do not want all those players in. I am pretty sure some will fold.
2. I would prefer to be up against just one player to reduce the risk of losing the pot so I do intend to induce some folding.
3. At the same time I also do not want to play my entire stack because I know that I can easily lose even with AA (especially if they have KK or QQ).
4. The main thing though is that I don't want them ALL just to automatically fold and collect a pretty poor pot.
5. I believe that at least 2 of them will probably fold anyway... if they all fold then so be it: at least I didn't put my entire stack in.

OK... so if one of them now shoves all-in, I will call it. I have AA after all!

The point I am making is that I never initiated an all-in myself. I rarely ever see it as a valid option. Sometimes I see people going all-in with just a couple of players in the pot... I see that as pointless either way. If they had good hole cards they have now made almost nothing because everyone folds. If they had a rubbish hand and was bluffing then anyone who calls them will probably make easy money.

It never seems sensible to shove all-in (especially pre-flop).

What do you think?

neart13 · Mar 7, 2020

All in is more about spr than your cards example you have AA with 15bb the action is a raise of 3bb and then someone else calls that.... there is now 7.5 bb in the pot;
big blind, small blind, raise and call.... you only have 15bb on the button, what do you do?
Same exact scenario except this time you have 100bb... now you can 3 bet there's no point in going all in...
So it should be more about stack to pot ratio mixed with the cards you hold! Rather than just having aces and wanting to get everything in!

vittopio · Mar 7, 2020

This all applies only to cash game (MTT with a short stack, we are forced to play push fold)! But even in the cash game that you did on the 4th bet? Put 5 bet seems to me too narrow a range!

texasfoldem · Mar 7, 2020

vittopio said:
This all applies only to cash game (MTT with a short stack, we are forced to play push fold)! But even in the cash game that you did on the 4th bet? Put 5 bet seems to me too narrow a range!

Thank you for the input. It was mainly to do with cash games because I don't do tournaments (at least not yet anyway

).

Could you explain a bit further about what you meant about too narrow a range? I more or less understand range as the amount of hands that players will play, which is directly linked to their VPIP. I was not being too specific about that. Maybe my scenario was a bit too basic with no info about the range of each player, but I still do not see a good reason for me to shove all-in with my AA. I still tend to find that people with wide ranges don't bet high on completely trash cards.

texasfoldem · Mar 7, 2020

neart13 said:
All in is more about spr than your cards example you have AA with 15bb the action is a raise of 3bb and then someone else calls that.... there is now 7.5 bb in the pot;
big blind, small blind, raise and call.... you only have 15bb on the button, what do you do?
Same exact scenario except this time you have 100bb... now you can 3 bet there's no point in going all in...
So it should be more about stack to pot ratio mixed with the cards you hold! Rather than just having aces and wanting to get everything in!

Thank you for the reply. I should have mentioned that this is probably more related to cash games.

Lets presume that the stacks of each player were quite similar and their stats like VPIP were not overly high or low (maybe 30ish or below). Could you expand upon that with that much info? I might be, in reality, just be giving a too general an example with not enough detail. Maybe given certain circumstances, you would suggest that an all-in IS correct?

neart13 · Mar 7, 2020

Yeah if no one is going crazy or getting out of hand too much then an all in feels like a waste of equity because I feel like you're playing face up and it's an easy fold for them, a 3 bet is always obviously recommended with AA... if you're 3- betting with other hands too then the AA gets a little more disguised within your over all 3-betting range but if it comes to a 5-bet pre flop I'd just go all in because at that stage it's just a waste of time to raise anything else because they've clearly shown they're ready to ram and jam!
Another point is on spr though because with a hand like that you want to try get your spr smaller than usual so your hand is easier to play....
Say the pot is 10 euro on the flop and you both have 90 each behind and the flop is 10,8,10 and they go all in four 90 into a pot of 10... that's a tricky call with AA Because they could have the 10, but they also might just have jj or QQ or J9 for an open ended straight draw.....
In this hand if you were able to get it to where the pot was say 30 on the flop even with 90 left behind the call becomes less of a mistake when you are behind to the 10!
Other than 5 betting all in pre the other tone I'd go all in pre is if the 3 bet wouldn't leave me enough behind to play all three streets of the flop, turn and river!
That's just me though I don't think I'm too incorrect and I also agree with you that it can be unnecessary to go all in pre flop!

vittopio · Mar 7, 2020

I think that if my 4 bet someone would put 5 bet I would to fold even a pocket QQ!

Eric Salvador · Mar 7, 2020

This would be an exact situation you should be going all in. If you 3 bet instead of jamming then you allow more hands to call that bet with there equity. You always want to get your entire stack in if you’re this far ahead of the other players. By you 3betting and giving other players the chance to make the correct call with their equity you’re basically asking to go to the flop a multi-way pot and have one of you opponents realize their equity.

texasfoldem · Mar 9, 2020

Eric Salvador said:
This would be an exact situation you should be going all in. If you 3 bet instead of jamming then you allow more hands to call that bet with there equity. You always want to get your entire stack in if you’re this far ahead of the other players. By you 3betting and giving other players the chance to make the correct call with their equity you’re basically asking to go to the flop a multi-way pot and have one of you opponents realize their equity.

OK, I see your reasoning. I think depending on which stakes it is, many people actually play less than decent hands. The higher bet size often makes them fold because they just wanted to see the flop. All-in would certainly get most to fold.

texasfoldem · Mar 9, 2020

neart13 said:
Yeah if no one is going crazy or getting out of hand too much then an all in feels like a waste of equity because I feel like you're playing face up and it's an easy fold for them, a 3 bet is always obviously recommended with AA... if you're 3- betting with other hands too then the AA gets a little more disguised within your over all 3-betting range but if it comes to a 5-bet pre flop I'd just go all in because at that stage it's just a waste of time to raise anything else because they've clearly shown they're ready to ram and jam!
Another point is on spr though because with a hand like that you want to try get your spr smaller than usual so your hand is easier to play....
Say the pot is 10 euro on the flop and you both have 90 each behind and the flop is 10,8,10 and they go all in four 90 into a pot of 10... that's a tricky call with AA Because they could have the 10, but they also might just have jj or QQ or J9 for an open ended straight draw.....
In this hand if you were able to get it to where the pot was say 30 on the flop even with 90 left behind the call becomes less of a mistake when you are behind to the 10!
Other than 5 betting all in pre the other tone I'd go all in pre is if the 3 bet wouldn't leave me enough behind to play all three streets of the flop, turn and river!
That's just me though I don't think I'm too incorrect and I also agree with you that it can be unnecessary to go all in pre flop!

OK, thank you for reply. Good points there.

texasfoldem · Mar 9, 2020

vittopio said:
I think that if my 4 bet someone would put 5 bet I would to fold even a pocket QQ!

It is difficult to fold QQ. The amount of times someone has had AA or KK while I am holding QQ is quite alarming though. Just happened again with me today along with someone holding AA against my AK.

Matt_Burns88 · Mar 9, 2020

texasfoldem said:
I call an all-in sometimes depending on what I have. I generally speaking do not shove all-in myself.

Here is a scenario (6 max 50c/$1):

UTG: 3-bets... $3
Next player: 3-bets... $9
Next player: CALLS $9
ME: Holding pocket aces...choices choices!

I believe some people will just shove all-in at my position with AA.
I personally would 3 bet-the last bet... about $30 (or possibly 3-bet + the 9 and 3 = $40ish)

1. The reason I would just 3-bet again is because I know that I do not want all those players in. I am pretty sure some will fold.
2. I would prefer to be up against just one player to reduce the risk of losing the pot so I do intend to induce some folding.
3. At the same time I also do not want to play my entire stack because I know that I can easily lose even with AA (especially if they have KK or QQ).
4. The main thing though is that I don't want them ALL just to automatically fold and collect a pretty poor pot.
5. I believe that at least 2 of them will probably fold anyway... if they all fold then so be it: at least I didn't put my entire stack in.

OK... so if one of them now shoves all-in, I will call it. I have AA after all!

The point I am making is that I never initiated an all-in myself. I rarely ever see it as a valid option. Sometimes I see people going all-in with just a couple of players in the pot... I see that as pointless either way. If they had good hole cards they have now made almost nothing because everyone folds. If they had a rubbish hand and was bluffing then anyone who calls them will probably make easy money.

It never seems sensible to shove all-in (especially pre-flop).

What do you think?

Thank you for posting.

I think what you are saying is generally correct, although your thought process is perhaps a little off.

Ideally you want to isolate one opponent. Playing multi-way pots will instantly reduce your equity as you have to miss more cards than against one player.
You shouldn't be afraid of getting it all in pre-flop with AA ever, but the key point that you haven't included in your post is that your aim is to extract MAXIMUM value from the best possible starting hand you can have? Shoving 100BB pre-flop certainly isn't going to do that, so 4-betting to around $40 is correct, with the expectation that those with junk and marginal hands will fold and you will probably be up against one opponent with a very much narrowed range.

Vallet · Mar 9, 2020

All-in on the preflop is a risk in any case. Even if the winning percentage is higher than the opponent 's. Many players can put all-in before leaving when they get tired of playing. You are not a risk taker apparently.

tame4g · Mar 9, 2020

A 4bet doesn't have to be a shove, but imo everyone folding if you jam over top isn't really a bad outcome with 21bb in the pot already imo. I'm either getting it in pre at 100bb or 4betting to 50bb minimum if I'm deeper than 100bb

nicuchico · Mar 9, 2020

is this a sitngo/cash/mtt?

doesn't matter. I just mini 4bet to everyone call it and inflate the pot

texasfoldem · Mar 10, 2020

Vallet said:
All-in on the preflop is a risk in any case. Even if the winning percentage is higher than the opponent 's. Many players can put all-in before leaving when they get tired of playing. You are not a risk taker apparently.

I think anyone who plays poker with some level of success is a risk taker. I will also call someone else's all-in if holding premium hole cards. I think reading the comments on this thread that I should probably shove all-in some times.

Another scenario I see is when one single person 3-bets the BB and then, out of the blue, someone just goes all-in. That is when I roll my eyes

. If they had something good then they will probably make nothing from it except 3 BBs (and possibly the BB and SB as well). If they had poor cards then all it takes is for the original raiser to have something like AA.

texasfoldem · Mar 10, 2020

nicuchico said:
is this a sitngo/cash/mtt?

doesn't matter. I just mini 4bet to everyone call it and inflate the pot

Cash games. I forgot to state that in OP.

tame4g said:
A 4bet doesn't have to be a shove, but imo everyone folding if you jam over top isn't really a bad outcome with 21bb in the pot already imo. I'm either getting it in pre at 100bb or 4betting to 50bb minimum if I'm deeper than 100bb

I think the 21 BB is not bad. Maybe I am just hoping for a bit more. I think most people can see I fold most of my hands (especially if they have a HUD) so they would presume I have something really good.

The amount of times I have had no action at all (everyone folds with no bets at all!) when I have AA is irritating to say the least. I hate when I am on the big blind and whole tables folds on me... that's the worst.

onelovebeach · Mar 10, 2020

texasfoldem said:
I call an all-in sometimes depending on what I have. I generally speaking do not shove all-in myself.

Here is a scenario (6 max 50c/$1):

UTG: 3-bets... $3
Next player: 3-bets... $9
Next player: CALLS $9
ME: Holding pocket aces...choices choices!

I believe some people will just shove all-in at my position with AA.

I personally would 3 bet-the last bet... about $30 (or possibly 3-bet + the 9 and 3 = $40ish)

1. The reason I would just 3-bet again is because I know that I do not want all those players in. I am pretty sure some will fold.
2. I would prefer to be up against just one player to reduce the risk of losing the pot so I do intend to induce some folding.
3. At the same time I also do not want to play my entire stack because I know that I can easily lose even with AA (especially if they have KK or QQ).
4. The main thing though is that I don't want them ALL just to automatically fold and collect a pretty poor pot.
5. I believe that at least 2 of them will probably fold anyway... if they all fold then so be it: at least I didn't put my entire stack in.

OK... so if one of them now shoves all-in, I will call it. I have AA after all!

The point I am making is that I never initiated an all-in myself. I rarely ever see it as a valid option. Sometimes I see people going all-in with just a couple of players in the pot... I see that as pointless either way. If they had good hole cards they have now made almost nothing because everyone folds. If they had a rubbish hand and was bluffing then anyone who calls them will probably make easy money.

It never seems sensible to shove all-in (especially pre-flop).

What do you think?

Take risks sometimes, and shove all-in with the right hand in the right, why not?! It´s about fun too maybe one of the most important aspect, why play NL then? Stick to PL and you don´t have to loose your whole stack or shove all-in!

texasfoldem · Mar 10, 2020

onelovebeach said:
Take risks sometimes, and shove all-in with the right hand in the right, why not?! It´s about fun too maybe one of the most important aspect, why play NL then? Stick to PL and you don´t have to loose your whole stack or shove all-in!

I'm not really into PL. I do like the freedom to bet what I want and call some else's all-in. I actually was not too clear in the OP... I do initiate an all-in post-flop/ turn/ river sometimes! That is actually not made clear in my OP. I find it is often very useful against LAGs.

I also agree now that I probably should push all-in pre-flop sometimes.

gon4iypes · May 1, 2020

texasfoldem said:
It is difficult to fold QQ. The amount of times someone has had AA or KK while I am holding QQ is quite alarming though. Just happened again with me today along with someone holding AA against my AK.

Recently I was in that very situation...I had AK, against AA. How deliciously amazing...I flopped the straight and took it down. It doesn't happen often but when it does it's grand , isn't it??

riff_raff312 · May 1, 2020

I find that a pocket pair of anything dose not mean your going too win as we all have seen before at one time or another that said i like the idea of the pot builder it will also give you some idea how many really want to play that's preflop now after that myself i don't like to let it go to the turn this is where a sizeable bet comes in weeding them out then the shove just my opinion :idea:

The Riff_Raff

thiagotup197 · Apr 9, 2021

I think that if my 4bet someone put 5bet, I would give up even with a pair of kk or jj!

eetenor · Apr 9, 2021

texasfoldem said:
I call an all-in sometimes depending on what I have. I generally speaking do not shove all-in myself.

Here is a scenario (6 max 50c/$1):

UTG: 3-bets... $3
Next player: 3-bets... $9
Next player: CALLS $9
ME: Holding pocket aces...choices choices!

I believe some people will just shove all-in at my position with AA.
I personally would 3 bet-the last bet... about $30 (or possibly 3-bet + the 9 and 3 = $40ish)

1. The reason I would just 3-bet again is because I know that I do not want all those players in. I am pretty sure some will fold.
2. I would prefer to be up against just one player to reduce the risk of losing the pot so I do intend to induce some folding.
3. At the same time I also do not want to play my entire stack because I know that I can easily lose even with AA (especially if they have KK or QQ).
4. The main thing though is that I don't want them ALL just to automatically fold and collect a pretty poor pot.
5. I believe that at least 2 of them will probably fold anyway... if they all fold then so be it: at least I didn't put my entire stack in.

OK... so if one of them now shoves all-in, I will call it. I have AA after all!

The point I am making is that I never initiated an all-in myself. I rarely ever see it as a valid option. Sometimes I see people going all-in with just a couple of players in the pot... I see that as pointless either way. If they had good hole cards they have now made almost nothing because everyone folds. If they had a rubbish hand and was bluffing then anyone who calls them will probably make easy money.

It never seems sensible to shove all-in (especially pre-flop).

What do you think?

Thank you for posting.

So we want to get the most EV. Assuming 1 caller or all folds.

Assuming just wins if we shove in this spot and we get called 1 time in 10 we win 23 bb 9 times 207bb -118bb 1 time =325bb

If we raise to 40 we get called 1 time in 10 we win 238bb if the V does not call beyond the flop

In order for the raise to be a better choice we have to be called 3 times in 10 and win all 3 times getting folds on the flop.

The raise to 40 is equal to the EV of the shove if we get 2 calls per 10 and get the V's stack 1of 2

We are however increasing our risk of loss as the V are calling more often.

The issue with the 40BB raise is how often do we fold when ahead. If we have 2 red AA and the flop comes all 9s5s2s and the V led shoves as their SPR is less than 1 are we folding? Do we expect players this weak to not Shove JJs on that flop. We have 57% equity in that spot versus that hand.

Just some thoughts to show the shove is not just a fear of loss play.

Of course it is much more complicated than the above as we have to know our V's frequencies and not just assume they will play the same way versus both bet sizes.

Hope this helps

BelFish · Apr 9, 2021

You can see which line of play is more profitable in the tracker database. But you need to have a lot of statistics for cases with 4-bet and all-in...

Roger1960 · Apr 9, 2021

Unless I am severely short stacked, I won't as a rule go all in. I try to figure out what some of these people are doing. lol
Especially in Omaha H/L, the hand changes so much on each street that pre flop just doesn't make sense.
Also a very important part of the game, I want YOUR chips....If you go all in you risk all and might pick up the blinds. Some players do this at the start of tourneys and they make very little chips.

I generally do not shove all-in pre-flop. Please read...

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