How would you play a KK from the button, heads-up, after the flop shows an A?

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Gnikace

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Suppose you are at the button and have KsKd. Everyone folds. Would you limp or raise? Now, suppose you raised and just the BB called. The flop comes Ac6h9s... BB checks... what would you do? And what would you do if the BB bets?
 
darkelf1

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he has the ace or he hasnt . the play may vary , depending
 
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AviCKter

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Suppose you are at the button and have KsKd. Everyone folds. Would you limp or raise? Now, suppose you raised and just the BB called. The flop comes Ac6h9s... BB checks... what would you do? And what would you do if the BB bets?

Okay. First of all, it depends on the stage (blind level), stack sizes and the opponent. Let's take it one step at a time,
1. Everyone folds to you on the button and you get dealt KsKd. You're like :D
2. You make a standard raise (depending on the stage of the tournament)
3. BB defends

Lets say its early in the tournament, then the BB isn't going to defend that wide. So we could start by ranging him. A good range defense by a solid player might be something like {22+, A2s+, A7o+, A5o, K9s+, KJo+, QTs+, QJo, JTs, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s}. You're like 3:1 favorite against this range preflop. Now once the board hits like Ac6h9s, you go from a favorite to a 50:50 against that range. What should you do? Since you still have 50% equity against such a tight range, you should c-bet, around 2/3rd pot. That means, in a pot of 6.5BB Pot, you should be betting around 4 BB. If the opponent calls, then you might consider pot controlling in the turn, provided the opponent checks, if he leads out, you should call the turn bet as well. Since there's a chance that he might be doing it with one of the hands you beat, yes off course, you cannot call a pot size donk lead, in which case you might consider folding, but anything around 50% you could call. If he checks, you check as well. Then the river is dealt, if the opponent leads out, you have to pay it off (again, if the bet size is too huge, you can let it go), but if the bet is reasonable, then you have to pay it off.

Hope that makes it clear.
 
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Gnikace

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Nice analysis. But if I c-bet, do you think he would call with any of the hands that he is losing with, or fold with any of the hands that he is winning? If he only calls if he is winning, and folds if he is losing, does it still make sense to bet? Anyway, if you check you would be giving him a free card... I would probably bet, but what if he raises? Poker is such an interesting game isn't it?
 
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I'm very nervous when an ace appears on the flop and make small bets to find out if the opponent has an ace
 
vinnie

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This is the epitome of a "Way Ahead / Way Behind" situation. I am not even under-stating that. If you go and google that phrase, the chances are you will see this exact scenario.

The correct play is to check. Your goal is to see showdown cheaply. You'll call a turn bet, mainly because your flop check could have induced some bluffs. But, you're not going to build a pot here. Don't c-bet. Hope to check it all the way down or keep the pot small.

If you aren't beat, you're unlikely to lose because you gave free cards. If you are beat, you're not going to get any folds from better hands.
 
rari458

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You should definitely be wary. I've talked to people at live tables about this exact situation and the general opinion is to keep the pot fairly small, either by checking or making extremely small bets, getting people to call a smaller bet instead of making a larger bet themselves.

As Vinnie said, keep the pot small any way you can.

Goodluck, this is one of those tough spots.
 
edc1

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I think checking here is a mistake-c-bet if only to see if bb calls or folds-if bb had a strong hand he shoulda raised pre-flop hands like a-a a-k thru a-j would prolly raise lesser hands and small pairs would prolly check pre-if he has a-rag he might just call your c-bet-I would look to bet again on turn,sometimes weak aces will fold to a decent sized bet-if bb stays in hand until river and checks it to you I wouldnt bet your prolly beat
 
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Make smaller bets to call out the aces in the hand if no raise Playful would shove all-in
 
vinnie

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Really, no, don't c-bet here. It's a mistake. Betting never gains you money when you are ahead, but it will increase the amount you lose when you are behind. Think it through, no A-x hand is going to fold to a single bet. And, this is not a spot where you're going to fire multiple barrels.

Say the pot is 7xbb.

If you check this down, you will win 50% of the time. Your expected value is 3.5xbb.

If you bet, you win 7xbb 52 times (when they fold their non-Ace hands), but you get called 50 times by their A-x hands. You have <9% equity when called. So, if you bet 4xbb into 7xbb, you will lose 2.7xbb for each of these bets.

(52 x 7 - 50 x 2.7) / 102 for an EV of 2.25xbb.

In both cases you are +EV (assuming you never get bluffed or put more money in once called. But, when you c-bet, you make 1.25xbb less than if you just check it down. Your bet doesn't gain you anything when ahead. It does cost you money when you're behind. The information doesn't really benefit you.

There is some discussion about turn play, here. But, the correct flop play (when you are checked to in position) is to check back. On the turn, against very straight-forward players, you can fold to a bet. Against alert players, you probably have to call because they still have air in their betting range. You'll probably have to fold to a river bet.
 
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I would raise on flop and wait reaction if is call,than I will chek raise or fold depeands of other player .....
 
sryulaw

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But if he checks on the flop, having A on the table, that does not mean he hit the AA pair, if he bets on the TURN, then yes I believe in A in his hand ...
Need to take into account that the chances of him receiving A is not that great, on the turn, or the river betting 70% of the pot makes him think before continuing.
If he paid the 70% and double your bet, you'd better fold the KK.
 
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Unless they're attempting to trap, you now have the knowledge that your opponent does NOT have an ace. In my opinion I would value bet enough to make them believe that you hold a valuable hand to make them lay it down.
 
vinnie

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Can someone who is a proponent of betting explain how your bet makes you more money than checking it down? Showing EV math.
 
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AviCKter

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Nice analysis. But if I c-bet, do you think he would call with any of the hands that he is losing with, or fold with any of the hands that he is winning? If he only calls if he is winning, and folds if he is losing, does it still make sense to bet? Anyway, if you check you would be giving him a free card... I would probably bet, but what if he raises? Poker is such an interesting game isn't it?

If you bet, do you think he should call with 9x, 6x, 87, T8, even A-rag maybe? Technically, or rather the correct play for him would be to call. Lets say he hits a A or a set there, do you think he should re-raise with something like A4? or monster like 66? No. The correct play for him would be to check/call, not check/raise, if he check raises, you'll have to muck it and he should know that, i.e. not getting paid with better hand or losing to a better hand. So I guess for balancing purpose (for the much advanced opponents, only happens in higher buy-in though), on some occasion he might check/raise with draws and weak pair to balance for the time he might do it with monsters, but if you see the board texture, its too dry to do that. I mean, there aren't many draws out there. So even a donk pro knows/should know that.

Now, lets take the scenario where you check the flop.
If you check the flop, then the turn comes like a 3 or a J (lets say for analysis purpose), and he leads out. What do you do? Do you call or do you fold? What range are you giving him, with your play? You see, now you're not sure of where you're in the hand any more. You're just saying to yourself, I know he has an A. And that's only one particular hand combo. You can't be that sure in poker, for god shakes, we're not Daniel Negreanu and we shouldn't think that way, anyways. So back to the hand, he bets, and lets say you call. Now, the river comes another blank. He bets 1/2 the pot, what's your play here? Fold? Call?

You see, you're costing yourself a lot of trouble just by trying to pot control the flop, rather otherwise. In my opinion, the best play would be to c-bet the flop 100% of the time and check the turn, if called (for pot controlling purpose), fold to turn-leads sometime. And decide on the river.
 
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A

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Really, no, don't c-bet here. It's a mistake. Betting never gains you money when you are ahead, but it will increase the amount you lose when you are behind. Think it through, no A-x hand is going to fold to a single bet. And, this is not a spot where you're going to fire multiple barrels.

Say the pot is 7xbb.

If you check this down, you will win 50% of the time. Your expected value is 3.5xbb.

If you bet, you win 7xbb 52 times (when they fold their non-Ace hands), but you get called 50 times by their A-x hands. You have <9% equity when called. So, if you bet 4xbb into 7xbb, you will lose 2.7xbb for each of these bets.

(52 x 7 - 50 x 2.7) / 102 for an EV of 2.25xbb.

In both cases you are +EV (assuming you never get bluffed or put more money in once called. But, when you c-bet, you make 1.25xbb less than if you just check it down. Your bet doesn't gain you anything when ahead. It does cost you money when you're behind. The information doesn't really benefit you.

There is some discussion about turn play, here. But, the correct flop play (when you are checked to in position) is to check back. On the turn, against very straight-forward players, you can fold to a bet. Against alert players, you probably have to call because they still have air in their betting range. You'll probably have to fold to a river bet.

But Vinnie,
You're playing ahead/behind game here. But how can we be so sure with a check on the flop that we're ahead or behind? If a blank peels on the turn any opponent that might have hit the 9 or 6, depending on the turn, should lead out, hoping that our range didn't connect with the board. Quite frankly, if you see the board texture, we're a favorite to hit that board with our range than our opponent to hit it. Ax combos is limited, there are a lot many combos that the Villain should defend his big blind with. And in this modern age of poker, people defend a lot wide. Just by being conservative I could come up with a very conservative range (see my first reply), and quite honestly that's a very conservative defense range.
 
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That said, if you're playing Live, or if you have more info on the opponent, play by adding those info (those infos might be invaluable).
 
Andrei Korolev

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Preflop raise and check BB make a re-raise,and the turn and river to watch the activity of the BB ...
 
A

AviCKter

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Beginner's mistake

I'm very nervous when an ace appears on the flop and make small bets to find out if the opponent has an ace

Never play scared. Play correctly, and everything else will fall into place.

Can someone who is a proponent of betting explain how your bet makes you more money than checking it down? Showing EV math.

Try it on CardRunners EV (I don't have a license for it, so can't show the actual EV)
 
vinnie

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But Vinnie,
You're playing ahead/behind game here. But how can we be so sure with a check on the flop that we're ahead or behind? If a blank peels on the turn any opponent that might have hit the 9 or 6, depending on the turn, should lead out, hoping that our range didn't connect with the board. Quite frankly, if you see the board texture, we're a favorite to hit that board with our range than our opponent to hit it. Ax combos is limited, there are a lot many combos that the Villain should defend his big blind with. And in this modern age of poker, people defend a lot wide. Just by being conservative I could come up with a very conservative range (see my first reply), and quite honestly that's a very conservative defense range.

That range is ~23%. And, you're assuming he doesn't 3-bet any of it? If he 3-bets 5% (say 88+, AJs+, AKo), how does he do?

On an A-9-4 rainbow flop, we have 49.85% equity in the 7.5xbb pot. If we check, we get 3.74xbb average EV.

He starts with 176 hands. Of them 89 are top pair or better. Against that range we are 8.6%. We'll assume he folds everything else when we bet 5xbb.

89 times we have 1.51xbb equity in the 17.5xbb pot we created, but it cost us 5xbb to create it, so we lose 3.49xbb for each of those bets.
87 times we pick up 7.5xbb, when he folds.

[(89*-3.49)+(87*7.5)]/176 = 1.94xbb average EV

Betting: 1.94xbb < Checking: 3.74xbb

Turn play, where he bets a 9 or and 8, is fine because we include that in the bluff catching we do when we call turn leads. We're not folding to a turn lead unless the player is a complete limp noodle who never bets worse than top pair.

Try it on CardRunners EV (I don't have a license for it, so can't show the actual EV)

I can run EV calculations using tools that are available for free (like propokertools or equilab and simple math). All I need is the ranges.
 
vinnie

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Note: it should be intuitively obvious that calling a bet on the turn (in the above spot) has an EV worse than checking it down @ 3.74xbb but better than betting the flop @ 1.94xbb.
 
A

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There you go:
I'm assigning him a conservative defense range of {99-22, AJs-A2s, AQo-A2o, KQs-K8s, KQo-K9o, QJs-Q9s, QJo-QTo, JTs-J9s, JTo, T9s, T9o, 98s, 98o, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s}
Against that range, on a {Ac, 9d, 6h}, we have 55% equity.
EVcheck = 0.55*6.5 = +3.575
EVbet = 0.285*6.5+(0.285*14.5)-(0.43*4) = 1.85 + 4.13 - 1.72 = +4.26 (i.e 28.5% missed the flop, so folds. 28.5% has middle pair, weak pair, OESD that won't fold to a c-bet, 43%, the rest, we're beat. And you C-betting 4 bb, assuming the opponent is the kind of player who doesn't fold any pair or draw)

Now lets come to the game plan. If we check the flop, then the opponent has every right to bet the turn with the weak, middle pair hands and should bet hoping that we just missed the flop, why else would we check the board in Position? We're going to get into a lot of trouble with 1/2 pot turn bet (3.6 bb), 1/2 pot river bet (6.8bb); we'll just have to pay it off. Or have we narrowed down his range to A-x, two pair, already? And a lot can change in the turn and the river.


That range is ~23%. And, you're assuming he doesn't 3-bet any of it? If he 3-bets 5% (say 88+, AJs+, AKo), how does he do?

On an A-9-4 rainbow flop, we have 49.85% equity in the 7.5xbb pot. If we check, we get 3.74xbb average EV.

He starts with 176 hands. Of them 89 are top pair or better. Against that range we are 8.6%. We'll assume he folds everything else when we bet 5xbb.

89 times we have 1.51xbb equity in the 17.5xbb pot we created, but it cost us 5xbb to create it, so we lose 3.49xbb for each of those bets.
87 times we pick up 7.5xbb, when he folds.

[(89*-3.49)+(87*7.5)]/176 = 1.94xbb average EV

Betting: 1.94xbb < Checking: 3.74xbb

Turn play, where he bets a 9 or and 8, is fine because we include that in the bluff catching we do when we call turn leads. We're not folding to a turn lead unless the player is a complete limp noodle who never bets worse than top pair.

Try it on CardRunners EV (I don't have a license for it, so can't show the actual EV)

I can run EV calculations using tools that are available for free (like propokertools or equilab and simple math). All I need is the ranges.
 

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CallmeFloppy

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For part 1 - I would still put in a raise with KK on the button unless I know one of the players behind me likes to raise. Then I can play based off that.

For part 2 I would like to know what type of player is calling in the big blind and what the preflop raise was. Is this a player that likes to defend his blinds or not? Tight or Loose? You can make arguments either way depending on your opponent.
If I have an unknown player, I would likely make a c-bet.
 
vinnie

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There you go:
I'm assigning him a conservative defense range of {99-22, AJs-A2s, AQo-A2o, KQs-K8s, KQo-K9o, QJs-Q9s, QJo-QTo, JTs-J9s, JTo, T9s, T9o, 98s, 98o, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s}
Against that range, on a {Ac, 9d, 6h}, we have 55% equity.
EVcheck = 0.55*6.5 = +3.575
EVbet = 0.285*6.5+(0.285*14.5)-(0.43*4) = 1.85 + 4.13 - 1.72 = +4.26 (i.e 28.5% missed the flop, so folds. 28.5% has middle pair, weak pair, OESD that won't fold to a c-bet, 43%, the rest, we're beat. And you C-betting 4 bb, assuming the opponent is the kind of player who doesn't fold any pair or draw)

Now lets come to the game plan. If we check the flop, then the opponent has every right to bet the turn with the weak, middle pair hands and should bet hoping that we just missed the flop, why else would we check the board in Position? We're going to get into a lot of trouble with 1/2 pot turn bet (3.6 bb), 1/2 pot river bet (6.8bb); we'll just have to pay it off. Or have we narrowed down his range to A-x, two pair, already? And a lot can change in the turn and the river.

You have some errors in the calculation. We don't have 100% equity when worse hands call, and our equity is (win%*pot - bet). Even if we had 100%, it would be (0.285 * 14.5 - 4) or 0.1325 in your original calculations, but worse in the actual. We also have equity when called by better 43%*(8.69%*14.5 - 4) or -1.18, which is not quite as bad as you gave.

I get 53.19% equity with that range checked down. This is just using Equilab, but that shouldn't be off too much.

If it checks down, we have 3.46xbb average EV.

There are 289 combos in this range.

129 of them are {top pair, two pair, or better}: 8.69%
78 of them are single pairs {middle, second, or worse}: 84.75%
4 of them are open-ended straight draws: 63.91%
78 of them could be considered complete misses and will fold: 100%

129/289 * (8.69% * 14.5 - 4): -1.223
78/289 * (84.75% * 14.5 - 4): +2.237
4/289 * (63.91% * 14.5 - 4): +0.073
78/289 * (100% * 6.5): +1.754

Total combined EV: +2.841

2.841 is worse than 3.46, so betting the flop makes us less money than checking, even in your scenario. A scenario where we get calls from 22, 33, and 65s, all of which have no draw and are horrible pairs. I think that is pretty optimistic on an Ace high flop, OOP, against a pre-flop raiser. I think these assumptions are far too optimistic, but we can go by them.

Checking the flop and calling the turn will have higher or at least equal expectation to betting (as we can assume that hands which won't call on the flop might bet the turn when we show weakness). We are still calling against all the hands which beat us, so our EV will be worse than if it checked down.

Are you really worried about being double-barrel-bluffed on the turn and river OOP on an Ace high flop, just because you checked behind on the flop? If so, the solution is going to be adding more value to your flop checking range. Hands like AQ (and KK ironically enough), where you can check and call turns and some rivers (not with KK but yes with AQ) when an opponent decides to lead. You can also bet AQ on the turn, if your opponent checks again. Heck, I probably check behind AA here, because there's just nothing out there that can call a bet.

It is really suicidal for the OOP player to have a high two barrel frequency on the turn and river here. There are many A-x hands in the Button's raising range which won't always bet this flop, but also aren't folding to two bets. Granted, some of the worst of those hands "should" be folds to two bets, but people don't like to fold Aces, even Ace-X they would never bet themselves.

Why do we check behind in position aside from because we missed and/or are weak? Pot control, encouraging bluffs, deception, etc. Or, like in this spot, because checking the flop and calling a single bet on a later street is higher EV than betting the flop is.
 
Sheepodog

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Because I have historically have had such a bad run with KK, I play them like 9's 10's or j's...for me that means a raise pre flop and a call if I get bumped. When the ace hits I'll call a reasonable bet or make a pot size bet to test the water. Then I usually get suspicious if he calls. By making that bet it usually gets me to the river if he's trapping and who knows, I may spike a king. But with kings...I run scared. But give me 89 suited and I'll get really pushy!!
 
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