How to study the ever changing game of Poker

zinzir

zinzir

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I keep reading in various places including here on Cardschat about how poker is evolving, and how you need to keep reading new material in order to keep yourself up to date with the ever changing game. Honestly, to me that sounds more like a fallacy or a gimmick.


What's really changing about the game of poker?

  • The rules of the game aren't changing
  • Algebra isn't changing
  • The Probability Theory behind calculating odds isn't changing
  • Average human intelligence isn't changing
  • The patterns of human reaction to various psychological stimuli/stressors isn't changing.

Actually, I can't think of one thing that has changed in the game of Texas Hold'em since the day it was invented.


In my opinion if you read and understand the concepts in the following three books written by David Sklansky, the limit to how far you go on your poker journey will be limited only by your native intelligence, talent and how much experience you'll gain at the tables:


1. The Theory of Poker

2. Hold'Em Poker For Advanced Players

3. Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

The caveat here is “understanding”. Regardless of what you are reading, if you don't understand the concepts highlighted by the author, reading becomes virtually useless, and, even worse, if you misunderstand what the author is saying, reading becomes detrimental instead of helpful.

Our activities and lifestyle in general have been marked during the last few decades by various fads that come and go, and poker is no exception, with different players and styles being “hot” at one point in time or another.
However, you'll never beat Isildur (for example) by reading an article or book about how to beat Isildur, often written by some guy who never played Isildur himself because he can't even afford the stakes Isildur is playing. But if you are smarter than Isildur, more talented than Isildur, and gain more experience than Isildur, you are going to beat the heck out of Isildur using the very concepts magistrally described by Sklansky in his old books.


Please let me know what you guys think. Am I missing something here? Am I wrong? Why?
 
N

neptun1914

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If the no limit holdem was already solved and we had perfect GTO theory of it it would be enough to just play that and do not evolve further. Fortunately it is not yet solved so the game is interesting and you need to play combination of GTO base and exploitative play to achieve your goals. And here are the changing elements. More and more players start reading and understanding poker fundaments and even some advanced techniques which were known only to pro players just 10 years ago. Things that worked against most players 10 years ago are no longer working the same way.

I also agree that the first thing you need to do as new player is to understand the basics and build good foundation so that you take +EV decisions most of the time. But when this is done you should also adapt your game to the specific players against you and if you see that there is global change in the behavior of most players in certain situations you should adjust your foundation also. For me this is the changing aspect - to monitor the reactions of the other players about your play style and try to adapt your game to these changes.
 
zinzir

zinzir

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If the no limit holdem was already solved and we had perfect GTO theory of it it would be enough to just play that and do not evolve further. Fortunately it is not yet solved so the game is interesting and you need to play combination of GTO base and exploitative play to achieve your goals. And here are the changing elements. More and more players start reading and understanding poker fundaments and even some advanced techniques which were known only to pro players just 10 years ago. Things that worked against most players 10 years ago are no longer working the same way.

I also agree that the first thing you need to do as new player is to understand the basics and build good foundation so that you take +EV decisions most of the time. But when this is done you should also adapt your game to the specific players against you and if you see that there is global change in the behavior of most players in certain situations you should adjust your foundation also. For me this is the changing aspect - to monitor the reactions of the other players about your play style and try to adapt your game to these changes.

To me, GTO sounds like the Turmeric of nowadays poker. It has all the benefits known to mankind combined into one affordable capsule. You learn this GTO thing and become a perpetual winner regardless of who your opponents are and what cards they are getting. Oh, my, we should all be billionaires by now. :) With our mighty system we would walk over primitive players like Stu Ungar, who didn't even know what GTO was :) My humble common sense has a huge problem with that type of claims.

I agree with you that "you need to play a combination of GTO base and exploitative play", but to me that's just a fancy way of saying "you got to know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em", a concept that, again, goes back to the very day the game was invented, and was popularly described by Kenny Rogers, who wasn't even a poker player but a singer of country music :) Of course you want to exploit your opponents' mistakes and make very few mistakes of your own to you deny your opponents' chance of capitalizing on them, that is a concept that Sklansky kept repeating probably over a hundred times in the three books above mentioned.

"More and more players start reading and understanding poker fundaments and even some advanced techniques which were known only to pro players just 10 years ago. Things that worked against most players 10 years ago are no longer working the same way."

That is the base of the whole gimmick. All of a sudden the World is full of poker buffs who somehow developed immunity to the old poker concepts.
Who are these prodigies, and what concepts don't work anymore: Raise, Check-Raise, Semi bluff, Bluff, Position, Slow Play, Free Card, Deception, odds, Implied Odds, Reverse Implied Odds, Hand Reading, Evaluating the Game, all of them? Okay, if these concepts are becoming obsolete, what else is there? Where are the novelties?
In my opinion, the writers of the new poker Age are simply feeding us the same old poker concepts utilizing a slightly different lingo on top of making unproven generalizations about how the players "out there" are behaving nowadays, which I don't find helpful at all.

I stand by my opinion that after understanding the poker concepts, a player's success will depend on a combination of the following three things:
1. Native intelligence
2. Poker talent
3. Experience
While intelligence and talent are God gifts, experience is what a player should focus his energy after getting done with understanding the universal poker concepts. So one should read and understand the proven old books, and after that play, play, play.
 
NWPatriot

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It sounds like you will not be swayed in your opinion on this subject, but let me try this.

The game itself of course, has not changed. 52 cards, 4 streets of action, the possible actions we can take are all fixed. What does change, are the players and the tactics. It may not be that the tactics are new, but their use is different now.

Chris Moneymaker won his wsop in 2003. Dan Harrington wrote some terrific books on Tournament poker in 2004. There was a huge boom in poker interest at this time. The tactics and techniques needed to navigate through this was specific. Not necessarily new, but specific.

Then came the internet boom which allowed players to play millions of hands in a relatively short amount of time, and actually analyze their hand history like never before. Before this, it was impossible to gather information on millions of hands of data and to analyze it. This by itself, exposed a ton of information about our play and our opponents play.

The next logical step was GTO. Using computers to simulate all manners of situations to try and find answers to these questions. (For me, I like the idea of zeroing in on the best way to go about something, but I am not yet convinced that 0EV solutions are what we should be seeking).

As we go through this poker journey, the things that change are subtle. There is logic behind why our open bet sizing has changed over time, or why our c-bet frequency ebbs and flows over time. I didn't say the logic was good or bad, just that there is logic. Aggression levels shift as well.

Even though there are still thousands of players that show up for the WSOP, I have seen a dramatic shift in who is playing poker in my local card rooms. 10 years ago, I could easily find 100 player tournaments on a Saturday morning. Then the poker rooms reduced their room size and then closed down altogether. The interest has waned and the players left are much better than the players I was playing against 10 years ago. We have to constantly adjust to our audience here. This is just good poker, right? We need to know what we are looking for and how to interpret what is happening and most importantly how to react to all of this.

The poker tool box is fairly limited, but how we use those tools ebbs and flows over time. Many have said that Dan Harrington's books our outdated and will not work in today's game. A book or article written today may in fact have a limited life due to the facts as you have laid them out.

Good luck and God Bless.
 
zinzir

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Thank you so much for still trying to sway me :).

I truly appreciate your logical arguments that put the situation into a different perspective, for I am actually not the true beneficiary of this thread and neither are you, it is the silent reader who has the opportunity to find out a variety of views his peers have on the subject, the more the merrier and the more different the better.

I don't know about others, but that's what I'm looking for on the Forum, honest and unbiased opinions from members like me. It doesn't matter if I consider them right, wrong or anything in between, they are all valuable for me to choose what resonates with my own rationale. More so than opinions written by so called experts who have to overcome the bias of having courses, coaching subscriptions, books and articles to sell.

So thank you again. It is thoughtful posts like yours that add value not only to this thread, but to Cardschat in general.

Good luck in everything you do!
 
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Another thought provoking post zinzir.

In essence, I agree. Becoming interested in poker a few years ago I found myself swamped.Starting from zero, I found much of the old school poker literature somewhat dry and opaque. Only through experience did it make sense. However, simultaneously I was bombarded with GTO at every turn. Or to be pointed, the ‘concept’ of GTO which was intimidating. Before I had gotten a grip on the game it apparently morphed before my eyes into another entity. Not only that, NHLE was solved!

Everywhere I turned intelligent people – the likes of Dominik Nitsche as a player or Remko Rinkema as a media figure - were obsessing over GTO. It took me a longer than it should have to conclude whilst the theory behind GTO (as applicable to poker) was valid, in practice it was questionable.

To be clear, I advocate for any and all learning sources that could possibly be of interest to anyone. If GTO floats someone’s boat, have at it.

That said, the longer I play the more I believe in simple things. You need to possess a natural intelligence and affinity for the game coupled with an unquenchable desire to learn. And by learn, I mean in the broadest sense – as much about identifying opponents playing style and the table dynamic as any given stats. Then, it finally comes down to experience, which simply cannot be beaten or for someone like myself, rushed.
 
zinzir

zinzir

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Another thought provoking post zinzir.



Thank you for understanding my main reason for starting this thread as well as for your insightful post.
It is your post, together with neptun1914 and NWPatriot's that made my own post worth writing.
I only wish there would be more members posting their own different opinions and thoughts here, so we can all learn from each other.
 
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zinzir - I also wish poker debate was a little more diverse - not just within the forum but the poker media also.

The poker industry is somewhat insular and an 'accepted wisdom' whether about strategy, a player/playing style, news or the business of poker itself tends to be widely embraced without too much argument - objective criticism is frequently construed as negativity.

However, like most things in life, differing opinions (particularly articulate, thought provoking ones) raise the bar for all who participate. Your post on 'donk' play was illuminating to me and my nittish self . I want to have someone challenge my opinion and shift me out of my perceived comfort zone.

I appreciate players such as Jeff Koon and Domink Nitsche are fascinated by GTO and deep diving into sophisticated solvers but am also aware players such as Bryn Kenney and Dan Coleman rely on little more than natural talent. There is more than one way to approach the game. Over recent years players from high rollers to newbies have become better informed, more knowledgeable of the game than ever before, its true. But the game is still played with the same 52 cards as you point out!

We should always be in the process of informing, then re-informing our poker perspective, but surprisingly, it's often in a forum (rather than coaching video or book) that a well made point really grabs me- from time to time profoundly- so I appreciate the effort and enthusiasm.
 
Nathan Williams

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I think you should study poker material that is actually meant for the games you play in. Too many people study material that is far beyond their skill level and meant for high stakes games.

This is actually the biggest problem with most poker books/courses in my opinion. They are made by world class pros for high stakes games. Yet the vast majority of people play low stakes as a hobby and so what they learn does not apply to their games. In fact, sometimes it can even end up harming their results.

Also, it is extremely important that you take notes and implement the material right away. A poker book or a course is not like reading a novel or watching a movie. It only works if you take it seriously and actively use the strategies at the tables.
 
frnandoh

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Nowadays the GTO strategy responds all your questions. Study gto strategy and keep studying to be ever updated.
 
zinzir

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I think you should study poker material that is actually meant for the games you play in. Too many people study material that is far beyond their skill level and meant for high stakes games.

This is actually the biggest problem with most poker books/courses in my opinion. They are made by world class pros for high stakes games. Yet the vast majority of people play low stakes as a hobby and so what they learn does not apply to their games. In fact, sometimes it can even end up harming their results.


Let me start by thanking you for your post. It is nice to have the opportunity to exchange poker ideas with a professional in the field.

I will try to address each of your statements at a time.

I disagree that comprehensive in depth textbooks are addressed to professionals, and the rest of us need to read “Poker for Dummies”.
I am a purely recreational player, but I did not find anything in Skansky's books that did not apply to play money tables, freerolls or micro stakes.
It is counter intuitive in my opinion to claim that poker is a different game at play money tables than it is at the $6000/12000 table at Bobby's Room, or that poker in a $50 ACR freeroll is different than WSOP. It's exactly the same game, same cards and exactly the same combinations and possibilities. The very same principles apply.
The only difference is the level at which players perform according to their individual intelligence, talent, and experience.

I doubt the amateur Chris Moneymaker held his own against top pros because some Poker for Dummies book he read before the 2003 WSOP.

"Also, it is extremely important that you take notes and implement the material right away. A poker book or a course is not like reading a novel or watching a movie. It only works if you take it seriously and actively use the strategies at the tables."

As far as the above statement, in my opinion your advice is fundamentally wrong. Especially for new players. Here is why: by asking a beginner to take notes and follow them in a blueprint or recipe like fashion you are actually:

1. Introducing the false idea that poker can be dealt with in a pure logical way, similar to a Lego or puzzle.
2. Suppressing the player's ability to listen to his instinct and act on it.
3. Undermining the player's self confidence
4. Subliminally convincing the player to be a follower of others' instructions instead of being himself observant and innovative .

Basically you are taking a potentially intelligent and talented individual and conditioning him to perpetual mediocrity. In my opinion, that is exactly the reason why Sklansky only discussed concepts in his books, and never gave specific advice.

Just as an example, let's say I read a book or attend one of them courses, try to memorize as much of possible, take notes, and then rush online or to the casino to put the information into practice before I forget anything. Would that make me a good player?
Not in my opinion, not even close. It would make me a bizarre form of cyborg, a human trying to play poker using an algorithm, actually not even a clean algorithm but only what my memory could recall from the algorithm, together with some personal notes.

In poker, as in life, you will never find anything out of ordinary following the beaten path. I agree with you that most of us recreational players will never achieve high skill levels. But if one doesn't even try, he is guaranteed to have absolutely no chance.
 
COMIRRR

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The game has not changed. We have changed. We want more and more things. We complicate ourselves, we do not like simple things and this is seen in our game. We try to analyze too much and if we are honest with ourselves we will see that after our long analyzes we still did not succeed what we wanted, then I sit and wonder why all these analyzes? Indeed, in the online game you see all these things. Poker is the same, the claims are different!
 
zinzir

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The game has not changed. We have changed. We want more and more things. We complicate ourselves, we do not like simple things and this is seen in our game. We try to analyze too much and if we are honest with ourselves we will see that after our long analyzes we still did not succeed what we wanted, then I sit and wonder why all these analyzes? Indeed, in the online game you see all these things. Poker is the same, the claims are different!


Amen to that, my friend! We are the ones who have changed, but for the worse, not the better :)
 
zinzir

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zinzir - I also wish poker debate was a little more diverse - not just within the forum but the poker media also.

We should always be in the process of informing, then re-informing our poker perspective, but surprisingly, it's often in a forum (rather than coaching video or book) that a well made point really grabs me- from time to time profoundly- so I appreciate the effort and enthusiasm.


You know what the ideal Cardschat would be, in my opinion? A place where the CC veteran members we can all see on top of the Leaderboard are active and try to post insightful content.

I'm not asking them to engage in conversation with you and me, maybe we are too green or whatever, but at least engage each other so the rest of us could read and learn.

I don't know about you, but the way the content is displayed right now, I feel bombarded with free samples from pros and experts trying to sell their own books and courses, and that's not exactly what I personally expect from a forum.
 
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You know what the ideal Cardschat would be, in my opinion? A place where the CC veteran members we can all see on top of the Leaderboard are active and try to post insightful content.

I'm not asking them to engage in conversation with you and me, maybe we are too green or whatever, but at least engage each other so the rest of us could read and learn.


Yet another thing I have noticed and agree with. Its remarkable how many of the most experienced CC members, appear a little reticent at this point (to be diplomatic).

As pointed out, for me, a really good post in a poker forum is often more impactful than a point labored in a poker book. It's similar to reading a concise, bright reply within a 'below the line comment' to a written magazine article.

I'm more interested in the mental game, the psychology of poker over dry technique. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence will study the game and continue to do so but any belief in relentless studying (once past a good foundational game) will take me where I'd wish in poker lessens every day. My game is fundamentally correct (like most modern players). Which matters not a jot if I can't overcome my lack of aggression, a fear of taking a bad beat or worse still 'embarrassing' myself when a play backfires. Reading your posts and a few others has done as much to push and prod me and my evolving game along as any video or book has done recently.

Hopefully some of the veterans will come across posts such as yours and re-engage with the forum with increased regularity.
 
hugh blair

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Quote

How to study the ever changing game of Poker

Nathan is right here in what he said the only way we can study poker is by deep painstaking analysis of our own flaws and mistakes and reduce and eliminate the many possible leaks and improve our understanding of the game relative to our bankrolls.
This takes time patience and is hard work what works for a multi millionaire book author pro using martingale or other systems of play for example probably will not work for a free roller or even a good regular with a 5 or 6 digit bankroll.:)
As Nathan said you can read an entire library full of books in my opinion overwhelming information but it will not count for much unless we are using that theory knowledge properly and putting it into practice.
If those books are expensive might do your roll more harm than good,:eek:
I try to simplify things instead of looking at too much poker ideas break them down into small manageable tasks,
Am I missing out on any added risk versus reward value anywhere freerolls,promotion challenges, reload bonuses or tickets for example pace yourself think long haul everything else is just logistics.:icon_stud
 
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Warrior1961

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Hello everyone.

From my rookie position I allow myself to contribute some ideas that this thread inspires me, in which there are even professionals participating.
As I told you several times, I stopped playing poker for 10 years (I played a few months, close to the year, at that time) and I resumed this beautiful sport 4 or 5 months ago.
Changes in poker? I didn't particularly notice them in the game, maybe I have the impression that the average age of the players has dropped (I know of boys of 12, 13 and 14 who play using documentation from their parents, I guess ...).
Perhaps that there are more and more young people (too much for my taste) playing in the rooms has made the game more aggressive on the one hand (a lot of unsatisfied testosterone perhaps?) And on the other hand I also notice that many people, especially those guys, take poker as a video game (I clarify that I respect these games and from time to time, despite my age, I spend some time with them, although now I prefer to study more poker) and not as a sport.
I agree with the one who said that you should not study or watch videos of NL500 if you play NL2 (what was said was not exactly like that but I think the idea was that).
I think only two things have changed: on the one hand the people who play poker and, on the other hand, the increasingly advanced technology, which, as I have heard, has made a program, if I remember correctly, Poker Snowie, to be Unbeatable for the vast majority of great professional poker champions.
Is it harder to win? Absolutely, at least for me (a fish like me 10 years ago was clearly a winner in sit and go of $ 5, today I can't even exceed $ 1).
Is poker prettier today? I don't know, it's a matter of opinion. What I am clear about is that technology (bots, trackers, etc,) have taken away a certain romanticism and mystery from our beloved sport.
Solution ? Adapt or dedicate yourself to playing RPGs online or backgammon.

I insist, it is the opinion of a simple beginner.

Kind regards from Buenos Aires.
 
zinzir

zinzir

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Quote

How to study the ever changing game of Poker

Nathan is right here in what he said the only way we can study poker is by deep painstaking analysis of our own flaws and mistakes and reduce and eliminate the many possible leaks and improve our understanding of the game relative to our bankrolls.
This takes time patience and is hard work what works for a multi millionaire book author pro using martingale or other systems of play for example probably will not work for a free roller or even a good regular with a 5 or 6 digit bankroll.:)
As Nathan said you can read an entire library full of books in my opinion overwhelming information but it will not count for much unless we are using that theory knowledge properly and putting it into practice.
If those books are expensive might do your roll more harm than good,:eek:
I try to simplify things instead of looking at too much poker ideas break them down into small manageable tasks,
Am I missing out on any added risk versus reward value anywhere freerolls,promotion challenges, reload bonuses or tickets for example pace yourself think long haul everything else is just logistics.:icon_stud


Nathan might be “right here”, but my problem with Nathan is that when he's recommending a book designed for small stakes amateurs over Sklansky's books, he has a book just like that for sale, entitled “Massive Profit at the micros”. If you read his book, take notes and apply them at the tables, you should expect making $1.000 a month playing micro stakes. Ask him, he'll tell you, the add is right there on his website, popping up in bold letters.

I don't how good Nathan's book really is, it could be the best poker book ever written. All I'm saying is I have no idea if Nathan's words are his true, heartfelt thoughts or not, as long as he has a financial interest in saying what he says.

I have played a good number of CC freerolls against you. I have also seen you in the League, where you are currently the defending MVP. And you don't seem to be playing with a cheat sheet like that in front of you.
I look up to you, man! So give me some some substantial insight please, don't just point me into Nathan's direction with empty slogans like “painstaking analysis”, “identifying leaks”, “improve understanding” (besides, what does the Martingale system aka gambler's fallacy have to do with poker in general and David Sklansky in particular?)
I would like to know what you didn't understand from Sklansky's books. What did not apply at the stakes you were playing, what did not apply in your freerolls?
Tell me who you found to be better than Sklansky, was it Harrington, Jonathan Little, Phil Gordon, who?

Your thoughts are so valuable to me because, even though you might have less poker experience than a pro, I can take your words at face value and I can relate to you. That's the reason I'm spending my time on a forum, if I wanted coaching or courses I could find them on my own, Google would list them in a jiffy for me to choose from.

Not only you, but MtCashman, Martin, jaymfc, TeUnit, freeringo, tahoeden, Gary Heart, mtl mile end, bullishwwd, Memphis Grind, and many others we all respect as veteran CC members and good poker players.
Imagine a forum where you were actively engaging each other and with the rest of us, going back and forth discussing all sorts of aspects related to poker, generating meaningful dialogue we could all benefit from.

You guys are the real Treasure Chest of Cardschat! If only you tapped into your own potential, instead of catering to “protential” :)
 
hugh blair

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Look up to me must be joking are you having a giraffe mate,:laugh:
Camo-Animals-by-Art-Wolfe-02.jpg

All books can help you if read them with interest instead of flicking pages quickly because TMI need a break head hurts and sometimes I do not focus properly on them.
Years ago when I started playing poker I thought I knew it all once I had a good understanding of the basics.
Today I think I still have a lot more to learn I have made a couple of improvements this year thanks to advice from other members by documenting some of my mindset problems with BRM in mad mod position thread still though when I get to a fork in the road unsure left or right what direction to take at times,:confused:
Have learned more about payment processors thanks to my mistakes and MTCashman and other peoples advice or realized missing out on value by not registering for certain sites that was staring me in the face but did not dawn on me until millya5 said it.
When I read what I write and see the awful mistakes maybe days,weeks or months later even sometimes then I try to take corrective action.
Would focus on yourself zinsir instead of being too critical of others unless it is constructive,
Be honest about your game on and off the felt and recommend,
Doing the excellent free course that just started on CardsChat with Colin and Katie and start a challenge blog being honest win, lose or break even showing your poker struggle the good,the bad and the ugly to the community and am sure you will find improvements too with other peoples input good luck.:five:
 
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Therminator

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The only thing that's changed are the players. There are so many "right" ways of playing poker. So many strategies and counter strategies and people continue to develop their game personally. When it comes to playing poker, no two people are exactly alike. As more people get better and join the game of poker, you'll naturally see exotic and newly developed playstyles that you'd never imagine.
 
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