LJG23
Rock Star
Silver Level
With no information I'm raising here. Sizing depends on stack sizes. If super short I'm probably just shoving. Even if the donk bet is a small flush you have equity to continue.
What ever the outcome just make sure you note what the villains donk bet range is so you can play with more information the next time it happens.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
I prefer to just call here, because I think, you can play the turn and river very well in position. These situations tend to be fairly simple in the sense, that he is probably not donking a straightdraw on a monotone board, so you dont need to worry, if for instance a Q hits the board. He either has a made flush, a flushdraw or perhaps sometimes a worse set, so its pretty easy for you to figure out, where you are, depending on his future actions, and which cards roll off.
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ph_il
...
Silver Level
depends a lot on stack sizes, but unless stacks are ridiculously deep, i'm just going to jam it in here.
you have a monster of a hand and there are so many hands villain have that is calling your jam. these include:
- top pair, top kicker
- over pairs
- 2 pairs
- weaker sets
- flush draws
- straight draws
- straight flush draw
- straight + flush draws (ex: jh 9d)
and if they do have a flush and i don't improve, then i say 'nice hand, well played, good game' and move on.
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Delfino
Rock Star
Silver Level
Raise.
There is a very slim chance that he already has a flush, and even if so, you have some outs for a full-house. Most probably vilian holds Ace of hearts and maybe some lower pair (hand like A8). You have to raise to stop him to drawing to that flush.
There is a very slim chance that he already has a flush, and even if so, you have some outs for a full-house. Most probably vilian holds Ace of hearts and maybe some lower pair (hand like A8). You have to raise to stop him to drawing to that flush.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
I have to disagree with those, who say, its very unlikely, Villain has a flush. A suited hand will flop a flush 1% of the time, but this does not mean, that Villain only has a flush 1% of the time, when the flop is monotone, and he comes out for a big bet. In fact flushes make up most of his value range and even more so, when we have top set, because then we block top pair and also the only reasonable two pair, which is T8. So this is not a spot, where "LOL we have the nuts". In fact our hand is close to being a combination of a bluff catcher and a draw. Not saying we should fold, but the idea, we are almost never behind, is simply wrong.
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Delfino
Rock Star
Silver Level
Well I disagree. If he has a flush I'm willing to go broke. We can't be playing poker afraid of nuts in hand of just single opponent we are up against every time. Let's see what he does after a raise. If he re-raises I might consider folding, but in microstskes I would expect a move like that from a nut draw.
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ph_il
...
Silver Level
i think this is a situation where both arguments could be valid, it just depends on what one is willing to do. i can totally see and understand someone taking a more cautious route because a flush is very much in villain's value range, especially in the micros because nobody folds their draws.
however, and this my personal view and i'm not saying this is the correct answer, i think if i always put villain on a made flush here, i'm just giving them way too much credit for a made hand. yes, a made flush bets out on the flop but then so does flush draws, potentially oesd w/ no flush draw, weaker sets, over pairs, and 2 pair are all hands that might bet out to deny equity and try and take the pot, and they're hands that are willing to call off a big raise or jam as well.
the problem i have with just calling here is what do i on the turn if another heart hits? it kills my action because now the turn goes check/check and the river goes check/check or villain bets and i either have to fold or make a crying call because the 4th heart on the turn is the perfect card to bet and represent, regardless if villain has a flush or not. not only that, but the if the turn is a heart, i'm losing a ton of value from hands that would've called a big raise/jam in this spot. if villain has 88, 33 they're never folding to jam but if the turn is a heart, well now i'm very unlikely to take their stack. and if i bet on the river, it has to a thin value bet because if i'm raised, i have to let it go. so, i basically let villain off easily in a spot where i could have potentially gotten stacks in on the flop.
so, i want avoid these spots when i have a monster of a hand on a wet board like this. by jamming (which is the best option if i stacks are short enough to get called by), then i can recognize my full equity in the hand and not put myself into tough decision spots where i might give up a ton of value.
now, i cant say villain never has a made flush here and if they do, oh well. that's just how it is sometimes, but i'm willing to go broke my monster hands if i need to. plus, i still have some equity hit as well, so it's not like all is lost. i'm still hitting on the turn or river ~30% of the time.
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300HPGOD
Legend
Platinum Level
This is villain dependent and stack depth dependent in my view. I would think that this is rarely a bluff so I would put villain on set of 8s, set of 3s, 83, 97 or J9 one heart, or a flush. If the villain is not a crazy agg player (even if they are agg thats fine, just as long as you wouldnt define them crazy) then I think without any stack depth info I would lean to jamming (again, as long as we are not ridiculously deep). I say this because I dont think villain would do this with the nuts. They wouldnt or shouldnt want us to fold if they flopped the world. I read the bet as they are scared a little, have a very strong hand and want to protect it. There is some merit to calling and keeping in their worse hands but I feel they are strong enough where they would not fold here most of the time. They are not folding 33 or 88 here if we jam. Yes those cards we would want to keep in the hand but they also wont fold so we can get our stack in here. 97 or J9 with one heart is the hand that I would not want to just call a raise with. I would rather make the villain call an all in with that and I believe they would. We are a slight favorite in that spot so we should want to get it in with that. It is also worth some value that even if villain has a flush we still would have 10 boat outs on the river. I can see the merit for calling to keep the worse hands still in the hand but I like shoving more since the hands I think villain has will call anyway and I discount the flush the most out of their potential holdings (yet I should add small flushes like 75 hearts are possible but villain may not call 3x UTG raise with that holding)
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
If another heart comes, then all his bluffs just got there, and he is never betting any worse hand than yours. So you have around 20% equity, if he bet, and then you just make a math based decision, like you would with a straight or flush draw. If pot odds and implied odds are good enough, you call, if not you fold, and its no big deal. I think, where a lot of people go wrong here, is, that they feel, they MUST win the hand, because they flopped top set. But top set is a very marginal hand, if there is a 1-liner to a flush, and it can easily be folded on the river and also on the turn, if the price to continue is to poor.
IntenseHeat
Legend
Bronze Level
I agree and disagree with each of these.
Maybe it's indicative of what a tough spot this is that while I may not agree one hundred percent with any of these arguments. At the same time, each of these responses is so intelligent and well reasoned, that they are hard to disagree with. Like 300HPGOD says, it's dependent on villain, as well as the size and depth of the player's stacks. If the all-in is called, will we be playing for all of his chips or all of mine? Also, he could be bluffing, or drawing, or trying to protect his hand against a possible flush draw.
It's hard for me to answer a question like this without a little more information. It's also hard to answer without being in the moment. I might put the villain on a certain hand based upon other hands I've seen from him. Or I may expect him to be particularly aggressive or even bluffiferous based upon what I've seen before. In that moment all of my reasoning might lead me towards one action, and then at the last second I may find myself doing something different as if someone else had done it.
So in the absence of a definitive response of my own, I would say that the four responses above contain solid reasoning that should lead you in the right direction.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
I agree, its much better, if people post an actual hand history in the relevant sub-forum. My answer is assuming, that this is a normal poker hand, where there is some sort of stack left behind like 100BB. If its a tournament hand, where calling Villains donk bet will leave less than a pot sized bet behind, then there is not much to analyse, since calling his donk bet will pretty much commit both us and him to the pot. So if we jam the flop, he is probably never folding, and if we call, he is jamming most turns, and then we will have to call it off. So it does not really matter, what we do, and getting it in on the flop is certainly fine.