J
jonnyb
Rising Star
Bronze Level
you play like street fighter? hmm i can't really empathise with that! to me it's like a game of cunning and i like to enjoy the fantasy that i'm some kind of smooth operator, biding my time until i triumph at the end! haha i'm not sure i can think of a good analogy... maybe like when you're trying to "woo" a girl and it gets a loooong time of laying the ground work? i treat it a little bit like that.
i think this mindset makes the "best" decision easier to arrive at. i go for the move that i think will aid me best in the long-term, so even if it proves to be a mistake in the short-term i won't be beating myself up about it; i'll just comfort myself with the knowledge its all playing into my long-term game. heck, maybe that's a mistake and i'm letting myself off the hook too easily, who knows!
i think this mindset makes the "best" decision easier to arrive at. i go for the move that i think will aid me best in the long-term, so even if it proves to be a mistake in the short-term i won't be beating myself up about it; i'll just comfort myself with the knowledge its all playing into my long-term game. heck, maybe that's a mistake and i'm letting myself off the hook too easily, who knows!
spiderman637
RIP Buck
Silver Level
Poker isn't it a street fight game mate !!!
It requires a lot of skill and analysis to become a good player...
People who think its just a luck game or street fight kind, they are absolutly wrong pal.And most of them rely on luck than skill.
But a good player relys least on luck and maximum on his skill.
I suggest you to study harringtons mate...
It requires a lot of skill and analysis to become a good player...
People who think its just a luck game or street fight kind, they are absolutly wrong pal.And most of them rely on luck than skill.
But a good player relys least on luck and maximum on his skill.
I suggest you to study harringtons mate...
RI_ER_SA
Rock Star
Silver Level
today i am going to seperate my decision into a process.
1.objective
2.information
3.options
4.evalution
5.implementation.
but i dont know how it will work out on the tables .
do u think top pros have a set up process like these or they play inituatively?
1.objective
2.information
3.options
4.evalution
5.implementation.
but i dont know how it will work out on the tables .
do u think top pros have a set up process like these or they play inituatively?
F Paulsson
euro love
Silver Level
You do want the decision process to become subconscious, yes. However, that takes a lot of practise and as a way of getting there, focus on getting certain details subconscious, one at a time.
To give an example, make a habit out of checking the stack sizes in comparison to the pot size. Do it every time, every hand, regardless of what you hold. Make it a habit and eventually you will do it without thinking about it.
Creating correct habits is harder than most people think. Not only do we not get the correct processes to our subconscious, sometimes we get BAD processes executed subconsciously and that's pretty hard to reverse.
To give an example, make a habit out of checking the stack sizes in comparison to the pot size. Do it every time, every hand, regardless of what you hold. Make it a habit and eventually you will do it without thinking about it.
Creating correct habits is harder than most people think. Not only do we not get the correct processes to our subconscious, sometimes we get BAD processes executed subconsciously and that's pretty hard to reverse.
thepokerkid123
Visionary
Silver Level
Emrald Onyxx
Rock Star
Silver Level
Sorry but I found another artice that relates...........
Make Every Play for a Reason
By Daniel Skolovy
User rating: 4.93 out of 5 (309 votes)
So many poker players make plays just for the sake of making them. Don't let this be you.
With every play you make, you should have a clear view of what it is you want to accomplish.
The key to making good decisions is to have an outcome in mind. You should make every play for a reason. So ask yourself what you're accomplishing before you make your play.
I have a friend who "plays" poker; sometimes I rail him. Whenever I see him make a questionable move I ask him, "Why did you do that?"
Often I'm met with replies like, "I don't know" or "Didn't really think about it" or "Just because."
This is not the way to play poker. Just guessing at things and betting or checking for the sake of doing it is not playing poker.
Each decision you make could lead to winning or losing your stack. So you have to be sure to give each decision your full attention.
Whenever you act, you should have a goal. Are you trying to make your opponent fold? Are you making a value bet? You must clearly conceptualize the purpose of each action before you perform it.
Example 1
Game: $1/$2 No-Limit six-max; effective stacks $200.
You have A
J
in the big blind. It's folded to the button, who raises to $8. The player on the button is a tight-aggressive player - stats-wise something like 19/16/3.
The small blind folds and you ... take some time to think about the situation.
Your options are three-betting, calling and folding - all of which are decent choices. Some of course are better than others.
Because the button is raising a fairly wide range, you decide you're not going to fold your A-J. Against a tight opponent, raising from early position and then folding is an easy play.
But the raiser from the button will be raising a huge range. Since you're way ahead of the bulk of his range, you're torn between three-betting and smooth-calling. Let's look at both carefully.
Hard to believe with the hat on, but if Tom Dwan three-bets you, he's got a definite plan.
Three-Betting
If you three-bet, he will fold out the worst of his range and will continue with A-K, A-Q, K-Qs, AA-88, and some suited connectors. Some of these will be four-bet, some of them will not.
If he folds, which is one of the better scenarios, you win a small 4xBB pot. If he calls, you'll be playing out of position with a growing pot against a range that largely dominates you.
You beat his button-raising range, but his three-bet calling range is better than your hand.
Most of the time the flop is not going to help you; you'll be playing out of position against a decent TAG on a flop that didn't improve your hand against a range that largely dominates you.
The one positive aspect to three-betting is that you will win a number of pots before the flop - and when you do see the flop, you'll have the initiative. However, the initiative is seldom enough to overcome playing out of position against another good player whose range beats you.
>>Thus, when you three-bet your goal is to get your opponent to fold.<<
If Hellmuth is flat-calling and keeping the pot small, he's got a reason.
Calling
Now let's look at the flat-call. There are several plus sides to smooth-calling. The main drawback of course is that you let your opponent take the lead in the hand.
On the plus side, you keep the pot small with a potentially dominated hand. Also your opponent will continue with the bulk of his range.
If his button-raising range is something like AA-22, A-Ks, 4-5s, A-Ko-6-7o, Axs, A-To-A-6o, K-Jo-T-8o, Q-9s-9-7s (most TAG's button ranges are similar), you're actually ahead of his range.
By smooth-calling you allow him to continue with his entire range, as opposed to three-betting, which lets him define his range to one that beats you.
Another positive of calling is if the flop comes ace-high, he'll continue his aggression with many worse aces than yours - whereas if you three-bet, he calls and the board comes ace-high, you'll often find yourself out-kicked at showdown.
So by flat-calling you get your opponent to continue with worse hands than he would if you were to three-bet him, and you get to keep the pot small for when you're behind. What you give up is your initiative in the hand.
In the end the EV of calling versus three-betting is fairly close.
What you give up in post-flop EV by three-betting is made up all the times you win the hand before the flop. What you give up in EV by not three-betting pre-flop is made up each time you flop a better hand than him and see a showdown.
Each side has its positives and negatives, with neither one showing a great advantage over the other. The idea is simply to fully contemplate each decision and know what you are going to accomplish before you act.
Example 2
Game: $1/$2 No-Limit six-max; effective stacks: $200. You have K
Q
on the button. It's folded to you and you make it $8.
The small blind folds and the big blind calls. The big blind is your average fishy player. He calls too much pre-flop and calls too many streets with dominated hands.
In PokerTracker terms, he plays around 32/8/1. The board comes 3
4
T
.
Your opponent checks and you ... ?
Well, this is an easy bet. After taking the lead pre-flop and flopping the second-nut-flush draw and two overcards, you have a strong hand. This bet is a continuation bet/strong semi-bluff.
Your bet has a split goal - either way is good. If you bet and he folds, you win. If you bet and he calls, you have a strong hand and are building a pot should you hit. So you bet $14 and he calls.
The turn brings the 9
. Your opponent once again checks. You ... ?
Now you have the option of checking or betting. You did pick up three more outs with the 9
. Now any jack also gives you a straight.
Checking
By checking, you gain a free shot at your 12 outs to a near nut hand as well as six more outs to top pair.
However, if you check and the river blanks, you have a very small chance of winning the pot. So what checking accomplishes is a free shot at your many outs.
Betting
Now the betting argument. Against a ten you have 18 outs. Your equity in this hand is very strong.
Your opponent could also be calling with a wide range of hands on the flop. He could have a mid pocket pair as well as a ten or maybe even overcards. He probably does not have an overpair.
This means you have 18 clear outs. You can also win this pot with a bet on the turn. If your opponent was calling the flop really light, he'll likely fold to the turn bet.
Your goal in betting the turn is the exact same as when you bet the flop. You don't mind if he calls because of your outs and you really don't mind if he folds.
You bet $35 and once again your opponent calls. The river drops down the Q
. There's $115 in the pot. Your opponent again checks.
Should you bet or check through?
Well, to make a properly informed decision you must look at what your opponent's range consists of. You know your opponent is fairly bad. His flop call could mean anything. His turn call defines his range a little better.
He most likely has some kind of ten (AT-JT), JJ, a flush draw or Q-J for a straight draw. Now you know what a check would accomplish. It will let you show down your hand and see if it is best.
Now, if you bet, you have to decide whether you're betting to make a better hand fold (not likely) or to make a worse hand call.
Obviously your bet will not make any better hand fold. So you have to decide if a worse hand will call.
Since you've determined your opponent is a bit of a calling station, you surmise he'll call with a worse hand. Your goal, therefore, is to bet for value.
You bet $50 and your opponent calls with Q
J
.
Success.
The Method to your madness should = success.Conclusion
As you can see there's a lot beneath the surface of your average poker hand. You must always be evaluating and reevaluating what your goals are in your hand.
It may start out as a bluff and by the end turn into a value bet. So do yourself a favor. Stop just acting instinctually, and start giving each decision the attention it deserves.
Ask yourself why, and ask yourself what you hope to accomplish before you act. It will help your game immensely.
Make Every Play for a Reason
By Daniel Skolovy
User rating: 4.93 out of 5 (309 votes)
So many poker players make plays just for the sake of making them. Don't let this be you.
With every play you make, you should have a clear view of what it is you want to accomplish.
The key to making good decisions is to have an outcome in mind. You should make every play for a reason. So ask yourself what you're accomplishing before you make your play.
I have a friend who "plays" poker; sometimes I rail him. Whenever I see him make a questionable move I ask him, "Why did you do that?"
Often I'm met with replies like, "I don't know" or "Didn't really think about it" or "Just because."
This is not the way to play poker. Just guessing at things and betting or checking for the sake of doing it is not playing poker.
Each decision you make could lead to winning or losing your stack. So you have to be sure to give each decision your full attention.
Whenever you act, you should have a goal. Are you trying to make your opponent fold? Are you making a value bet? You must clearly conceptualize the purpose of each action before you perform it.
Example 1
Game: $1/$2 No-Limit six-max; effective stacks $200.
You have A
The small blind folds and you ... take some time to think about the situation.
Your options are three-betting, calling and folding - all of which are decent choices. Some of course are better than others.
Because the button is raising a fairly wide range, you decide you're not going to fold your A-J. Against a tight opponent, raising from early position and then folding is an easy play.
But the raiser from the button will be raising a huge range. Since you're way ahead of the bulk of his range, you're torn between three-betting and smooth-calling. Let's look at both carefully.
Hard to believe with the hat on, but if Tom Dwan three-bets you, he's got a definite plan.
Three-Betting
If you three-bet, he will fold out the worst of his range and will continue with A-K, A-Q, K-Qs, AA-88, and some suited connectors. Some of these will be four-bet, some of them will not.
If he folds, which is one of the better scenarios, you win a small 4xBB pot. If he calls, you'll be playing out of position with a growing pot against a range that largely dominates you.
You beat his button-raising range, but his three-bet calling range is better than your hand.
Most of the time the flop is not going to help you; you'll be playing out of position against a decent TAG on a flop that didn't improve your hand against a range that largely dominates you.
The one positive aspect to three-betting is that you will win a number of pots before the flop - and when you do see the flop, you'll have the initiative. However, the initiative is seldom enough to overcome playing out of position against another good player whose range beats you.
>>Thus, when you three-bet your goal is to get your opponent to fold.<<
If Hellmuth is flat-calling and keeping the pot small, he's got a reason.
Calling
Now let's look at the flat-call. There are several plus sides to smooth-calling. The main drawback of course is that you let your opponent take the lead in the hand.
On the plus side, you keep the pot small with a potentially dominated hand. Also your opponent will continue with the bulk of his range.
If his button-raising range is something like AA-22, A-Ks, 4-5s, A-Ko-6-7o, Axs, A-To-A-6o, K-Jo-T-8o, Q-9s-9-7s (most TAG's button ranges are similar), you're actually ahead of his range.
By smooth-calling you allow him to continue with his entire range, as opposed to three-betting, which lets him define his range to one that beats you.
Another positive of calling is if the flop comes ace-high, he'll continue his aggression with many worse aces than yours - whereas if you three-bet, he calls and the board comes ace-high, you'll often find yourself out-kicked at showdown.
So by flat-calling you get your opponent to continue with worse hands than he would if you were to three-bet him, and you get to keep the pot small for when you're behind. What you give up is your initiative in the hand.
In the end the EV of calling versus three-betting is fairly close.
What you give up in post-flop EV by three-betting is made up all the times you win the hand before the flop. What you give up in EV by not three-betting pre-flop is made up each time you flop a better hand than him and see a showdown.
Each side has its positives and negatives, with neither one showing a great advantage over the other. The idea is simply to fully contemplate each decision and know what you are going to accomplish before you act.
]
You don't build a big stack without giving each decision the attention it deserves.
You don't build a big stack without giving each decision the attention it deserves.
Example 2
Game: $1/$2 No-Limit six-max; effective stacks: $200. You have K
The small blind folds and the big blind calls. The big blind is your average fishy player. He calls too much pre-flop and calls too many streets with dominated hands.
In PokerTracker terms, he plays around 32/8/1. The board comes 3
Your opponent checks and you ... ?
Well, this is an easy bet. After taking the lead pre-flop and flopping the second-nut-flush draw and two overcards, you have a strong hand. This bet is a continuation bet/strong semi-bluff.
Your bet has a split goal - either way is good. If you bet and he folds, you win. If you bet and he calls, you have a strong hand and are building a pot should you hit. So you bet $14 and he calls.
The turn brings the 9
Now you have the option of checking or betting. You did pick up three more outs with the 9
Checking
By checking, you gain a free shot at your 12 outs to a near nut hand as well as six more outs to top pair.
However, if you check and the river blanks, you have a very small chance of winning the pot. So what checking accomplishes is a free shot at your many outs.
Betting
Now the betting argument. Against a ten you have 18 outs. Your equity in this hand is very strong.
Your opponent could also be calling with a wide range of hands on the flop. He could have a mid pocket pair as well as a ten or maybe even overcards. He probably does not have an overpair.
This means you have 18 clear outs. You can also win this pot with a bet on the turn. If your opponent was calling the flop really light, he'll likely fold to the turn bet.
Your goal in betting the turn is the exact same as when you bet the flop. You don't mind if he calls because of your outs and you really don't mind if he folds.
You bet $35 and once again your opponent calls. The river drops down the Q
Should you bet or check through?
Well, to make a properly informed decision you must look at what your opponent's range consists of. You know your opponent is fairly bad. His flop call could mean anything. His turn call defines his range a little better.
He most likely has some kind of ten (AT-JT), JJ, a flush draw or Q-J for a straight draw. Now you know what a check would accomplish. It will let you show down your hand and see if it is best.
Now, if you bet, you have to decide whether you're betting to make a better hand fold (not likely) or to make a worse hand call.
Obviously your bet will not make any better hand fold. So you have to decide if a worse hand will call.
Since you've determined your opponent is a bit of a calling station, you surmise he'll call with a worse hand. Your goal, therefore, is to bet for value.
You bet $50 and your opponent calls with Q
Success.
The Method to your madness should = success.
As you can see there's a lot beneath the surface of your average poker hand. You must always be evaluating and reevaluating what your goals are in your hand.
It may start out as a bluff and by the end turn into a value bet. So do yourself a favor. Stop just acting instinctually, and start giving each decision the attention it deserves.
Ask yourself why, and ask yourself what you hope to accomplish before you act. It will help your game immensely.
Last edited by a moderator:
No Brainer
Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
I am in the process of putting some thought into every hand that I play.
On one hand, I am playing fairly tight through the early and middle stages of a large MTT and im getting sick of saying to myself, crap cards, crap position, fold.
On the other hand, once I get decent enough cards to play, I seem to go on auto pilot and make decisions within a split second without thinking about all the possible outcomes of that decision. This is definately a part of my game that I need to work hard on...
On one hand, I am playing fairly tight through the early and middle stages of a large MTT and im getting sick of saying to myself, crap cards, crap position, fold.
On the other hand, once I get decent enough cards to play, I seem to go on auto pilot and make decisions within a split second without thinking about all the possible outcomes of that decision. This is definately a part of my game that I need to work hard on...
RI_ER_SA
Rock Star
Silver Level
i guess players like me are lazy to think.
losing players = lazy to think
I will try to slow down my game and make better decisions.I hope i can fix it as a habit.
right now i am losing 60 percent of my HU games.I go on auto pilot and do not adapt my opponent
losing players = lazy to think
I will try to slow down my game and make better decisions.I hope i can fix it as a habit.
right now i am losing 60 percent of my HU games.I go on auto pilot and do not adapt my opponent
Double-A
Visionary
Silver Level
Too complicated... Quick/tactical thinking will serve you much better at the table than a slow/lumbering/strategic approach. Narrow it down, keep things simple, and avoid emotional decisions.
Ask yourself:
1) What do I want to do?
2) What can I do?
3) What should I (probably) do?
Question one: Get an understanding of what you WANT (emotional) to do when it's your turn. Then put it on the shelf and go to question two. For instance, "I want to bluff because I think I can get these guys to lay down." Okay, great. Acknowledge it (don't dismiss it) and move off towards rational thinking.
Question two: Simplify. You only have three options to chose from when it's your turn: bet, call, raise. In lot's of situations you'll only have two.
Question three: Now, state your current situation to yourself and choose from you list of possible actions. Like, "I'm on the button with 44 facing a raise from UTG and a three bet from middle position. I can raise, call or fold. Which one should I probably choose?"
If you're really stumped at this point in your thought process then it's time to dump my three questions, fire up the super computer, and get really serious about answering a new question, "What the hell is going on here?"
When you get stumped, post the hand history and let some of the more experienced members help you analyze it. You'll find yourself getting stumped less and less often.
Don't work on your swing on the golf course. Try and do most of your strategic thinking away from the table.
thepokerkid123
Visionary
Silver Level
No one's subconscious asks quality questions.
When it gets to the point that it's unconscious, it will feel more like instinct or "the obvious".
Using a a set list of things to think about is good for players of any skill level.
I have no idea what skill level I am at, but I've been making one recently myself although it's more "what to do and not to do" regarding my leaks and missed opportunities.
Listing ideal thought processes and questions to ask yourself is good because it will keep you from ignoring what you don't want to think about or just plain forget, but don't get overly tied to a list. There's a reason why no one can yet program a computer to play top quality poker, it's not a mechanical game where you can think the same way every hand, there are too man variables and you have to be able to adapt.
When it gets to the point that it's unconscious, it will feel more like instinct or "the obvious".
Using a a set list of things to think about is good for players of any skill level.
I have no idea what skill level I am at, but I've been making one recently myself although it's more "what to do and not to do" regarding my leaks and missed opportunities.
Listing ideal thought processes and questions to ask yourself is good because it will keep you from ignoring what you don't want to think about or just plain forget, but don't get overly tied to a list. There's a reason why no one can yet program a computer to play top quality poker, it's not a mechanical game where you can think the same way every hand, there are too man variables and you have to be able to adapt.
flint
Visionary
Silver Level
Subconcious thought is very important in poker, a lot of good poker players that could be the best players in the world get sucked in to tilt which is a testament to the power of the subconcious and how devastating it can be to your game if its not in line with your good concious thought.
Concious thought is very important also as not every hand do you have a good read of the players and situation so you have to use logic and make estimated guesses as to where you are at.
I think that the single thing that has especially helped me in online poker is taking my time to make decisions and going through different possibilities.
Concious thought is very important also as not every hand do you have a good read of the players and situation so you have to use logic and make estimated guesses as to where you are at.
I think that the single thing that has especially helped me in online poker is taking my time to make decisions and going through different possibilities.
lektrikguy
Legend
Silver Level
Somewhere between 2 and 3 is your gut feeling. You have to feel it. All the info in the world doesn't help if you don't trust your gut too.
Double-A
Visionary
Silver Level
I'm an instinct player too. I believe one of our goals in becoming better players should be to develop and intuitive judgement and understanding of our situations and how best to proceed.
Like the OP, I toyed with the idea of having a set way to think through each hand. Much like Phil Gordon's "Script". The problems I found were with my beliefs that most of my profits came from: 1) My opponents mistakes (it doesn't really matter what I'm thinking about). 2) My opponents failing to adjust to me switching gears (which thinking in a "lock-step" manner won't allow you to do).
Of course, playing by "gut" alone leaves us open to the danger mentioned earlier. Getting a bad process executed subconsciously. Now we are making mistakes...
That's why I think we should just play while being careful to note the situations where our gut may have failed us or when it was contrary to other information at hand. THEN take it away from the table and analyze it (or have better players analyze it) using a repeatable method.
I think using a lock-step thought process at the table is the poker equivalent of doing a "rolling restoration".
Like the OP, I toyed with the idea of having a set way to think through each hand. Much like Phil Gordon's "Script". The problems I found were with my beliefs that most of my profits came from: 1) My opponents mistakes (it doesn't really matter what I'm thinking about). 2) My opponents failing to adjust to me switching gears (which thinking in a "lock-step" manner won't allow you to do).
Of course, playing by "gut" alone leaves us open to the danger mentioned earlier. Getting a bad process executed subconsciously. Now we are making mistakes...
That's why I think we should just play while being careful to note the situations where our gut may have failed us or when it was contrary to other information at hand. THEN take it away from the table and analyze it (or have better players analyze it) using a repeatable method.
I think using a lock-step thought process at the table is the poker equivalent of doing a "rolling restoration".