How important is it to calculate outs?

How important is learning outs?

  • Knowing your outs will make you more profitable

    Votes: 15 83.3%
  • You can still make great money without knowing your outs

    Votes: 3 16.7%

  • Total voters
    18
G

GreatLeslie

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How important is it in poker to be able to calculate outs? I realise it's a big part of the game in looking past the flop for whether it's worth spending money to carry on during a pot, but do you focus on outs in poker? Is it something you just learned automatically or is it something you want to learn to do?

At the moment I use an online calculator which calculates my outs (not hand odds) But i'm learning to manually calculate these in my head and to test myself on hands and try and do them manually.

So what do you think people? is this a must learn technique for poker or can you win profitably without learning outs?
 
Suited Frenzy

Suited Frenzy

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It's very important to calculate outs. I'm not sure how long you've been playing but you should be able to pick up on it very quickly. I learned on my own from playing experience & IMO I think that is more important than learning straight from a book, internet, or calculator. Trial & error fits the best for me. Obviously everyone else is different though.

As far as being "profitable" w/o learning outs goes, it is definitely possible. I know some people who have never learned that stuff (either they are too lazy or they aren't smart enough) & still end up winning based on their luck. If you plan to be a long term player, I would suggest attempting to learn them rather than use luck to win. I say this all the time...luck comes & goes, but skill will last a lifetime.
 
rancidcarp

rancidcarp

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alot of players dont know how little odds their draws are. everyone needs to know this. its basic poker.
 
G

GreatLeslie

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It's very important to calculate outs. I'm not sure how long you've been playing but you should be able to pick up on it very quickly. I learned on my own from playing experience & IMO I think that is more important than learning straight from a book, internet, or calculator. Trial & error fits the best for me. Obviously everyone else is different though.

As far as being "profitable" w/o learning outs goes, it is definitely possible. I know some people who have never learned that stuff (either they are too lazy or they aren't smart enough) & still end up winning based on their luck. If you plan to be a long term player, I would suggest attempting to learn them rather than use luck to win. I say this all the time...luck comes & goes, but skill will last a lifetime.

I started playing poker in 2007 but only this year decided to take the game seriously. I have only ever played live with friends but when I play online I use an online calculator which calculates outs for me, and from this I am learning to do them manually which will come in good for whenever I play live. I've also watched a lot of Youtube videos on the subject which gave me confidence.

Everyone learns in different ways, but this is helping me to manually calculate everything. I tend to find the best way of calculating outs is by visualizing the board, and this may help people who aren't too great at maths, as i'm not the best person at math myself.

If I have two suited pocket cards and I see two suited cards on the flop, I know straight away I have a flush draw. I know this is a basic example and things get more complicated on the turn and river, but it's a good place to start.
 
TheKAAHK

TheKAAHK

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It will always be more profitable to know your outs. Even more so to be able to judge your "clean" outs.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

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Aside from just calculating your outs, you should really try to learn the rule of 2 & 4. Phil Gordon writes about this in his 'Little Green Book' taking a very simplified/easily understood approach. (it's definitely worth reading!)
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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I voted that you can win even without knowing your outs but both are true. You don't need to calculate your equity to the penny but having some idea of the likleyhood of hitting a draw, even a vague, one is important. If your clueless about pot odds then all your doing is supporting the economy.
 
G

GreatLeslie

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Aside from just calculating your outs, you should really try to learn the rule of 2 & 4. Phil Gordon writes about this in his 'Little Green Book' taking a very simplified/easily understood approach. (it's definitely worth reading!)

I'm aqauinted with the rule, you times your outs by 4 on the flop right? and then times by 2 on the turn?
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Another way to do it is to just count your outs and subtract it from the number of remaining unseen cards and divide by that number to give you your pot odds. For example you flop a flush draw. There are 47 unseen cards, 9 will help you 38 will not. 38/9 is 4.2 so you need to be either getting or expect to get 4:1 to call. I think this is easier because it's the pot odds i really need to know, not the equity.
 
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HooDooKoo

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Unless you're incredibly good at exploiting predictable/bad players, poker math is THE MOST IMPORTANT tool in a poker player's toolbox. I'm not suggesting that there aren't other useful tools, but the two I previously mentioned are (IMO) the most important ones. If you aren't good at exploiting the bad/weak players then poker math is CRUCIAL.

You can easily become a winning player just playing by the numbers. You will never become great playing just by the numbers, though: to be great, you also need to be able to identify and abuse exploitable players.

-HooDooKoo
 
B

Ben_Dover

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The other thing to consider is defense and understanding your pal's outs. If you have top pair and you think someone is on a flush draw because two suited cards on the flop, how can you bet a perfect 4:1? (Hint: third pot bet if heads up)
Your pal will strain the brain, add, divide and figure out they've got 4:1 and stay in. They get 20% chance and you get 80%. Plus, if their suit comes then you get the opportunity to bail and not pay off the hit.
 
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losties

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outs is quite important, you don't want to be shoving or continue to call if you know that you're way behind your opponent. You don't want to be taking that risk if you're deep in a tournament. I'm slowly getting used to finding out my outs in each hand that I play.
 
WeenieSVK

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Yea its absolute basics. You can have best read on player but, you cant make right decisions if you dont know what is your chance percentually to win (hit your straight or flush etc...)
 
XXPXXP

XXPXXP

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You can still make great money without knowing your outs

I choose this one.
because, if you are able to know what is your winning chance, you don't need to calculate outs.

even calculate outs , finally need to convert to winning percentage.

PS: I am not counting outs, I just counting all the happen situation, and divided them into win , tie , and lost. outs are rough estimate, looks like counting all situation is a little accurate.
 
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