How hard do you push when you have alot of outs?

So in a tourney I caught on my first hand. I was in early position, so I 3bet it.
3 people called
flop was:
At this point I had a straight draw and a flush draw so I bet the pot, hoping to scare a couple of them out. One guy folded, next guy went all in, and the third guy called. I also called, hoping to catch one of my outs.
I didn't catch it and one of them won with A7os (I think the other guy had A2os)

Did I play this well? What should I have done differently? And in general should you try and chase your outs or just leave it alone if you don't catch the flop?

You have a significant equity edge in this hand so get it in and be pretty happy about it:

Board: Ts Ac 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.591% 43.59% 00.00% 21256 0.00 { KsQs }
Hand 1: 38.019% 27.37% 10.65% 13346 5193.00 { A7o }
Hand 2: 18.389% 07.74% 10.65% 3774 5193.00 { A2o }

I agree with baudib but with some adjustements.There are some more factors here that could affect your decision. Stacks sizes, position in the tournament are elements to consider too when taking the decision to flip for a pot.
As played at your first hand i would probabely let it go if it is not a massive freeroll.

hands like OP, you should push to the maximum and be very happy if you have 2 all-ins in front of you.

ramdeebam said:

Hands like OP, you should push to the maximum and be very happy if you have 2 all-ins in front of you.

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It is a tournament and it is the verry first hand man. what is the EV here?

Sorry - I read the subject and quickly went through the OP.

I thought it was cash, but either way I still think it's fine to get the money in as they are going to be jamming worse draws imo often enough and even when they have top pair here, it's not all bad, we still have a TON of equity.

However, I don't "hate" folding if it's early on in a tournament and wait where we might be able to get it in, in a better spot with better equity vs them.

EDIT: Just seen him say early in tournament so he "3 bet it in early position"

OP if you are willing to 3bet K,Jss in early position at the start of a tournament, then imo you're or should be willing to get stacks in, just based on how loose you're playing. I don't understand how he can ask if he should call the shove..as you're essentially playing a loose style anyway..and he should be folding K,J in any sort of early position when blinds are low in a tournament and you are completely read less.


I guess I should read all of OP before I give an answer in future



So yeah in a nut shell OP - if you're willing to be 3beting K,Jss in early position, read-less, at the start of a tournament then you should be willing to stack here with no problems at all. If you don't know what the best move here is then you shouldn't be 3betting/opening up KJ to start with imo.

The fact that it's early in the tournament is more reason for me to get it all in. Never folding here, especially in a 3-bet pot.

Are you sure you mean 3bet, or do you mean a standard raise and just got mixed up because you didnt mention anything about an initial raiser?

And im happy to get it in vs 2 people with 13 outs twice

This isn't the type of situation where the same thing is always best under any conditions. For example, consider the spectrum between these two end points. If you're playing against opponents far better than you are, you should look to push edges hard because just playing your normal game and hoping to catch timely big hands is an inferior strategy. Otoh, if you're far better, you don't want to push the same edges as much because you can probably outplay people and get their chips with less risk.

Greattt question!! I change gears this way all the time! And depending on my table image, perceived range, donky style of villain etc.. I'm looking to make moves. You can make moves on anybody as well - tight nits prolly hav AA, KK and a 1 card flush out against ur flush str8 draw etc... U may not bet big into nits with a big draw if their a rock but most will fold to a big big bet. Better nits may pick up on your move if you have been playing too many hands or if they are a lil short stacked - you dont want to play into a player where valus bets commit them; youll see more of your share of over th top re-pops on you. Fear is your friend here - u dont want them feeling cornered - give them the fold out.

BluffYou123 said:

The fact that it's early in the tournament is more reason for me to get it all in. Never folding here, especially in a 3-bet pot.

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This, the first hand of a tournament is the best time to bust out.

ramdeebam said:

So yeah in a nut shell OP - if you're willing to be 3beting K,Jss in early position, read-less, at the start of a tournament then you should be willing to stack here with no problems at all. If you don't know what the best move here is then you shouldn't be 3betting/opening up KJ to start with imo.

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I have to wonder if this will make any sense to the OP? I hope so because - uh yeah - this.

I would have shoved hard...tons of outs, two people all in...

not chasing

OniGamer said:

So in a tourney I caught on my first hand. I was in early position, so I 3bet it.
3 people called
flop was:
At this point I had a straight draw and a flush draw so I bet the pot, hoping to scare a couple of them out. One guy folded, next guy went all in, and the third guy called. I also called, hoping to catch one of my outs.
I didn't catch it and one of them won with A7os (I think the other guy had A2os)

Did I play this well? What should I have done differently? And in general should you try and chase your outs or just leave it alone if you don't catch the flop?

Click to expand...

i dont think you were chasing just hoping for those outs at that point when the guy raised all in you have to think he must have top pair its a flip and do you want to risk so many chips on a hope his hand was made.ive folded when i shoulda stayed in and stayed in when i shoulda just folded .happy to be on cardchat where there are players having the same wonders .

Once you've potted it and seen a shove and a call it's always call with that much equity.

I'm guessing by 3bet it's meant to be 3x bet, but if it is a 3bet i think with that kind of aggression expect a lot of very early exits.

baudib1 said:

This, the first hand of a tournament is the best time to bust out.

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+1.

although the absolute nuts is failing to register to the tournament on time and playing some cash games instead.

OniGamer said:

So in a tourney I caught on my first hand. I was in early position, so I 3bet it.
3 people called
flop was:
At this point I had a straight draw and a flush draw so I bet the pot, hoping to scare a couple of them out. One guy folded, next guy went all in, and the third guy called. I also called, hoping to catch one of my outs.
I didn't catch it and one of them won with A7os (I think the other guy had A2os)

Did I play this well? What should I have done differently? And in general should you try and chase your outs or just leave it alone if you don't catch the flop?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure your thinking about these situations with clarity but the call was probably a good call. Depends on stacks and other info not in OP, but if you are getting something like 2 to 1+ on the call with 12 outs you are in a very +EV (even if it is super volatile you should generally take these gambles if they are massively +EV and/or will not bust you out of the tourney near the bubble) .
OP, the question of chasing outs or not chasing just comes down to pot odds vs race odds in this example, especially with the money bubble likely far off in the distance.
Some times implied odds can be a factor but with all betting action over on the flop (every one is all in) you simply have to look at the price you are being laid and compare it to the odds of winning.. For example, if you are pretty sure you have nine outs to the flush and another 3 outs to the straight (don't count the Js twice) then you have 12 outs twice. Usually you can count your outs, multiply by two, and add one to get pretty close to your % chance of winning. With twelve outs and two cards to come you are in roughly a coin flip situation. Getting 2 to 1 on a flip is a pretty serious edge.
With two players all in (depending on stacks) you'll usually be getting better than 2 to 1 (money already in the pot and plus the two all-in bets compared to what it costs you to call) if there's 20,000 in the pot and it costs you 10,000 to call you are in overlay. You're getting 2 to 1 and your odds of winning are about 1 to 1 (or 50/50). In other words, you'll lose the 10K half the time and win 20K half the time for an average gain of 5K/trial (using my numbers).
If you think about it that way you can see where one big flaw in your thinking is. Making a big bet hoping to chase SOME of the players out of the pot when you have a big draw is usually not the best idea. If you drove all but one player out then you'd be getting worse odds. When drawing to the nuts or something close to it, the more the marrier. If you improve you hand you will win against 3 opponents about as often as you'll win against a single opponent. Thinking about that concept could really help you to get your head around these situations. Its usually best to either get EVERYONE to fold or EVERYONE to call in when you have a big draw (even more so if you were drawing to the nuts). Hope that helps some.
Good "luck"