How does position help?

I've always accepted that position is important - that you can raise a wide range of hands on BTN but you need to be much tighter UTG - but I've never really understood why. Let's take a hypothetical scenario: you have top pair on the river and you're contemplating going for a thin value bet:

Scenario 1: In position.
Your opponent checks to you and you have top pair with a decent kicker. You are contemplating a thin value bet, but you are worried about being check-raised. You don't know whether the villain is going to check-fold, check-call or check-raise, and if you bet for value, you could be bluffed off your hand, so you have to make a tough decision between a thin value bet and just checking behind and potentially missing value.

Scenario 2: Out of position.
You have top pair with a decent kicker on the river. You are contemplating a value bet, but you also want to control the pot and don't want to risk a huge raise which could put you in a tough spot. There is also the option of check-calling for pot control and to induce a bluff. But the best part is that you can make a small river bet which would have the same risk as a check, but more potential for thin value.

Basically, when you're in position, it feels wasteful to make a small river bet and risk a check-raise (risk vs reward isn't high enough), but when you're out of position, you have more freedom to make that small, thin value bet, since you'd encounter the same risk anyway.

So intuitively, it seems like being out of position actually gives you an advantage! Am I missing something?

Position isn't just important on river decisions. In the scenarios, you left out prior action, which is assumed you were IP in scenario 1, and OOP in scenario 2 throughout the hand. Being in position allows you to dictate many factors of the hand leading up to river decisions. While in position in scenario 1, you were the one who dictated the size of the pot. Also, your river decision should have started to take shape when making your turn decision (whatever it may have been to get you to the scenario).

Position boils down to two things: Initiative and information.

Have you ever raised J/10 from early position only to meet a 3 bet that you wouldn't think of calling with J/10?
Of course. That's why we don't play J/10 UTG.
How about AA from the button and UTG throws a min bet and nearly everybody calls it. Your only move here is a nasty huge raise to isolate.

How about huge blinds late in a tournament? Late position information will tell you when a blind steal is appropriate or not.

So position only really matters preflop? And if that's the case, isn't the BB better than the BTN, since they get to close the action?

As for having the initiative, doesn't the player OOP have the initiative and the player IP is playing reactive poker?

dturner100 said:

Position boils down to two things: Initiative and information.

Have you ever raised J/10 from early position only to meet a 3 bet that you wouldn't think of calling with J/10?
Of course. That's why we don't play J/10 UTG.
How about AA from the button and UTG throws a min bet and nearly everybody calls it. Your only move here is a nasty huge raise to isolate.

How about huge blinds late in a tournament? Late position information will tell you when a blind steal is appropriate or not.

Click to expand...

this is great information. Basically, position is important because you get to act last on all the post flop streets. The later you get to act, the more information you have to act on in addition to less people that can raise after you.

The blinds are the worst position because you have to act first the button is the best. Getting dealt pocket aces is great any time however in position you can 4 x raise have 3 callers who all check to you and your holding a marginal a-8 spades on a board of one spade 3-j-8. Since everyone checked it's highly unlikely that anyone has anything unless their trapping with a set and most poker playerx would c bet k-j on that board. A bet here from position will take the pot down with a back door flush and pair as it stands. utg same hand and the button might reraise you to with a-q off just cause of the ragged board and make you fold your middle pair.

position is very important,and for player who are good player if he is late position and there is no raise ,he will usall raise no matter which cards he have,players often play on position not on cards.....

Being in position gives you the opportunity to make your decision with the most information possible. Even in that check raise scenario, you have the chance to re-evaluate the hand and make a decision based on how the hand has played thus far. Even if you get raised off your hand, you more insight on future hands.

The only thing I've been told so far is:
1) Position is important because you get the most information - why? When someone checks OOP, they're not necessarily representing weakness. They could be planning a check-raise or they might be slow-playing the nuts. It might be a trap. Please show me exactly how being in position gives you an advantage in reading a tricky opponent.

2) Good players use position - yes, I prefaced this thread by saying that I've always used position myself and I open up wider on the button than I do under the gun, I just want to know why position is so good, rather than accepting it as truth and not questioning it.

Position is one of the most important concepts in poker. Late position is best because you are last to act...therefore you have more information to draw from and can act accordingly. Also, being in late position gives you the ability to steal the blinds. Late position also means you can play a wider range of hands. Example - calling a preflop bet with a speculative hand, not hitting, but if your opponent checks to you on the flop you can often bet and take it down. Late position (button) should be your most profitable spot for these reasons.

Conversely, in early position you need a stronger hand to make up for the fact that you are oop and have more players to act behind, often meaning you will be dealing with a raise/reraise.

Texas holdem is a game of information and the more info you have the better your decisions can be.

Matthew Southall said:

The only thing I've been told so far is:
1) Position is important because you get the most information - why? When someone checks OOP, they're not necessarily representing weakness. They could be planning a check-raise or they might be slow-playing the nuts. It might be a trap. Please show me exactly how being in position gives you an advantage in reading a tricky opponent.

2) Good players use position - yes, I prefaced this thread by saying that I've always used position myself and I open up wider on the button than I do under the gun, I just want to know why position is so good, rather than accepting it as truth and not questioning it.

Click to expand...

1. If your opponent checks, you get to choose your action with the information that they checked. Meanwhile, they had to make their check with no information about your actions. You have a greater chance of exploiting your opponent than he does of exploiting you with this additional information. Sure, he might be planning a check-raise, but what if you check behind him with showdown value? Even if he does check-raise, is his check-raising range actually balanced between value and bluffs? If not, you can easily make exploitative folds or calls in response.

2. Poker is a game of information. The object of the game is to make inferences about your opponents' hand ranges based on their actions, and then respond with appropriate action. Players in later position receive more information, and therefore can make more accurate inferences, leading to a game-play advantage.