How do you consider outs in some situations?

I played like a donk and sucked out on turn by catching my overcards and won. Person who got eliminated by me called me a donk while other people said I had good outs and it was worth it to call. It was simple $2 sng.

I had around 1300 chips. My opponent had 800 chips. I had 89 suited. My opponent had 7 K suited. Flop came out 2 6 7 rainbow(all different suits). While I considered 5s and 10s as outs, which is 8 outs, some people said, i had 8 and 9s too, which is another 6 outs, therefore 14 outs. Can you really consider overcards as outs too? Of course, every situation is different but in general, I'm sure I can get an answer for this. Reason why I dont' consider overcards as outs is because if my opponent flopped a set or two pairs, then I'm at straight draw at best.

How do people consider outs?

pokerlovesme said:

I played like a donk and sucked out on turn by catching my overcards and won. Person who got eliminated by me called me a donk while other people said I had good outs and it was worth it to call. It was simple $2 sng.

I had around 1300 chips. My opponent had 800 chips. I had 89 suited. My opponent had 7 K suited. Flop came out 2 6 7 rainbow(all different suits). While I considered 5s and 10s as outs, which is 8 outs, some people said, i had 8 and 9s too, which is another 6 outs, therefore 14 outs. Can you really consider overcards as outs too? Of course, every situation is different but in general, I'm sure I can get an answer for this. Reason why I dont' consider overcards as outs is because if my opponent flopped a set or two pairs, then I'm at straight draw at best.

How do people consider outs?

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You have to consider them because, as you noted, you have 8 cards (outs) in the deck that will make your straight. But, and it's a big but, the 8's (3) and 9's (3) have to be factored in because runner 8's would give you trips, as would runner 9's, 89 would give you the top two pairs and an 8 or a 9, assuming no card higher than the 9 shows on the turn, would still give you top or second pair. Rough percentage at the flop is total outs times 4, which in this case would be 56% (4 X 14), meaning that as long as you were getting a minimum of 2:1 for your money your bet was good. Figured your way, you would be at 32% (4 X 8), meaning you would need at least 3:1 to make the bet worthwhile. The turn requires a recalculation, but since you didn't give that information, I can't tell you what your rough odds were. Rule of thumb on the turn is total outs times 2.

I don't know if that makes it any clearer, but that's the way you need to calculate it.

An out is a card(s), that, if arrived, would make your hand stronger than your opponent's. In your case, after the flop your opponent has a pair of 7s. To win, you have to hit one of 4 5s and 10s (giving you a straight), or one of 3 8s and 9s, giving you a pair of 8s or a pair of 9s respectively. This totals to 14 helping cards, or outs. If one card from flot matches your suit, and then turn comes of your suit again, then you get another 7 outs (9 minus one 5 and one 10) to make a flush (of course if your opponent's suit is not the same, then you don't get any outs).
Hope this helps

i have tried counting the outs when playing does help when searching for a flush or a straight but havent gotten good enough to do the %thing on hands this is pretty involved for a newbie like me but this forum has helped my game . i will strive to be a better poker player .

Counting Outs Video

I ran into this video on another forum. Perhaps the concept plus the illustrations will be of help.

PokerBrit and SCKenny teach you how to calculate your odds to wi Video by www.SpadeClub.com - MySpace Video

BTW, you need to click on the Title and the video will play in another window.

For a situation like this, you can count the overs as partial outs. They're going to be good sometimes, and they'll be worth virtually nothing sometimes. I generally count overcards as .5 outs each. So with 6 overs, and 8 straight cards, I'd put the real out total ~ 11outs (8+[6*.5])

As far as the donkishness, yeah unfortunately it was pretty bad regardless of your odds. This is simply not how to win tournaments. Should have folded it preflop unless blinds were large and your opponent's playing styles offered a +EV shove opportunity. Once you got to the flop, I don't know what the situation was, but stacks getting in seems crazy. Of course if you somehow got a large % of your stack in pre, then after flopping 11 outs, the rest is absolutely going in.

This hand had just youtwo in the pot? Depending on the preflop action it is possible to consider the 8 and 9 outs. If it was a limped pot, it is possible that you could take the hand jsut pairing one of your hole cards. Instead of giving yourself the ful extra 6 outs for the overcards, I might just drop 2 off just to give you abetter estimate. So you total outs would be more like 12 instead of 14. Then you could make a decision whether or not you are getting the proper odds to call.

hipshot55 said:

You have to consider them because, as you noted, you have 8 cards (outs) in the deck that will make your straight. But, and it's a big but, the 8's (3) and 9's (3) have to be factored in because runner 8's would give you trips, as would runner 9's, 89 would give you the top two pairs and an 8 or a 9, assuming no card higher than the 9 shows on the turn, would still give you top or second pair. Rough percentage at the flop is total outs times 4, which in this case would be 56% (4 X 14), meaning that as long as you were getting a minimum of 2:1 for your money your bet was good. Figured your way, you would be at 32% (4 X 8), meaning you would need at least 3:1 to make the bet worthwhile. The turn requires a recalculation, but since you didn't give that information, I can't tell you what your rough odds were. Rule of thumb on the turn is total outs times 2.

I don't know if that makes it any clearer, but that's the way you need to calculate it.

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I don't think that's the right way to do it. The 4 and 2 rule is the percentage chance you have of winning the hand if run to the river but it does not take into account runners. In other words, I don't think you can factor in running 8s or running 9s when calculating your outs on the flop.

Take for example if everything was the same except the opponent had KK. In this case on the flop you have 8 outs on the flop (any 5 or any 10). That would give you about a 8 x 4 = 32% chance to hit one of these cards over the next two cards to come. On the turn, you again calculate your outs and multiply by 2 to get your percentage chance to have the best hand. Say an 8 hits the turn. You now have a pair of 8s so in addition to the four 5s and four 10s left in the deck, you can also hit the remaining two 8s or four 9s in the deck to have a winning hand. Therefore, your chance to win on the turn is 14 x 2 = 28%. Note that running cards (the cards that would make you trips or two pair) were not factored into the calculation on the flop.

Mase31683 said:

For a situation like this, you can count the overs as partial outs. They're going to be good sometimes, and they'll be worth virtually nothing sometimes. I generally count overcards as .5 outs each. So with 6 overs, and 8 straight cards, I'd put the real out total ~ 11outs (8+[6*.5])

As far as the donkishness, yeah unfortunately it was pretty bad regardless of your odds. This is simply not how to win tournaments. Should have folded it preflop unless blinds were large and your opponent's playing styles offered a +EV shove opportunity. Once you got to the flop, I don't know what the situation was, but stacks getting in seems crazy. Of course if you somehow got a large % of your stack in pre, then after flopping 11 outs, the rest is absolutely going in.

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couldnt have said it better myself (seriously i really couldnt say it better myself)

Mase31683 said:

For a situation like this, you can count the overs as partial outs. They're going to be good sometimes, and they'll be worth virtually nothing sometimes. I generally count overcards as .5 outs each. So with 6 overs, and 8 straight cards, I'd put the real out total ~ 11outs (8+[6*.5])

As far as the donkishness, yeah unfortunately it was pretty bad regardless of your odds. This is simply not how to win tournaments. Should have folded it preflop unless blinds were large and your opponent's playing styles offered a +EV shove opportunity. Once you got to the flop, I don't know what the situation was, but stacks getting in seems crazy. Of course if you somehow got a large % of your stack in pre, then after flopping 11 outs, the rest is absolutely going in.

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Thank you mase. I like your comment. I'll keep this in mind. I can always think about overcards are other possible outs as partial outs and calculate it like the way you use it. I'll keep that in mind. thank you.

Personally I don't think you can necessarily consider your overcards here as outs. Not unless you're putting opponent on the hand he has.
I'm not sure of what the play had been like but can you be sure that pairing your 8 or 9 would give you the winning hand?
8-9 is a hand you would think about limping in behind in position in early levels or to perhaps call a raise in position but only in early levels of a sng when stacks are deep.
Your chance of hitting OESD on the flop is about 30%.
The 4 & 2 rule is a good way to estimate percentage of making your hand... but with lots of outs it overestimates your chances. Here's an example of a more accurate way to do it:
ie. 15outs
(4 * 15) - (15 - 9) = 60 - 6 = 54%
Anything over '9 outs', subtract 9 from the number of outs, then subtract this number from 4* your outs. Okay.. maybe I didn't explain that very well.
ie. 17outs
(4* 17) - (17 - 9) = 68 - 8 = 60%

Another thing to keep in mind when calculating outs is to consider whether or not they are 'clean outs', ie. with something like 'K-J', pairing your K &/or J might fill your opponent's straight.