How do I value bet effectively?

6

6bet me

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I am fairly new to poker and I play on $1/2 live tables and 5/10c online tables (no limit hold'em).

I know the basics like continuation bets, chasing a flush draw, etc. But I'm not good enough to make money playing poker (I lose more often than I win).

One thing I've noticed myself doing a lot is: when I have no hand at all, I'll make big bets in order to encourage people to fold. When I have a monster hand, I'll make small bets in order to encourage people to call. I can never seem to win good money off my monster hands, yet I risk so much with my bluffing hands.

Sometimes people call my big bluff bets and I lose heaps. Like if the board is AAT74, someone will call me down with something like QT and I'll lose my entire stack on the river because I was trying to represent Aces but they were too stubborn to fold.

If the flop is Q88 and I have A8, I'll bet half the size of the pot and everyone will fold.

How do I stop this from happening? How do I make the most money out of my monster hands? And how do I know when it's worth bluffing or when my opponents will be too stubborn to fold?
 
FromHereOn

FromHereOn

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Your hands can be important, but your opponents' hands and read on you are even more important.

If you're bluffing expensive hands, you need to know reasonably what hand your opponent has, and you'll need an opponent that believes you. If you aren't armed with that info, your bluffs should be limited to steal the cheap pots early, and not a whole lot more.

If you want to maximize value, you need to get your opponent to believe he or she has a better hand, and be dead wrong. Misrepresenting big hands will help you extract, but could get you into trouble if your opponent is trying to improve the hand against you. "It's a gamble". Your A8 on a Q88 board will only get you callers who have a Q, or maybe a better Ace against a 1/2 pot bet. If you check it down and a K hits on the next street, you may just have earned a caller who would have folded pre. Watch for flushes and straights on the river.

Tell a story that gets you what you want to an audience that wants to hear it!
 
Martin Carreira

Martin Carreira

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I agree with the previous comment. It is very important to read your opponents and see what shape they are acting in the tables. Thus making many times until we win with bad hands fold the villain
 
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Tosh_67

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I'm new to poker too and bluffing is a serious weakness in my game... aside from C bets I very rarely try it... I'm in microstakes and freerolls and there are too many people willing to call bluffs with nothing themselves... Maybe try bluffing less ? I'm just about profitable and like I say hardly ever bluff but I know I should improve on that aspect of my game so perhaps I'm suggesting you step backwards when you are already more ballsy than I am :)
 
skiptomyloot

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maybe your tells are giving away your hands . are you acting certain ways when you do bet out ? people can tell the difference from bluffs just by your physical action. It could be the way you put in your chips, maybe using your right hand when you bluff/call/raise or the same with the left hand. Also are you doing this out of position, in position, or maybe they notice your raising to quickly, therefore it might seem you can be playing hands to impatient. they also might catch you betting out strong alot, so they call alot just to catch weakness. I would say try observe your opponents first live. when i use to play live, i would sit there fold hands first, just to get an idea of who im playing against. It does help to play and take down info, and then when you know your opponents action, you can value bet them knowing more certainly that they are willing to call you often with something weaker
 
ConDeck

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One thing I've noticed myself doing a lot is: when I have no hand at all, I'll make big bets in order to encourage people to fold. When I have a monster hand, I'll make small bets in order to encourage people to call. I can never seem to win good money off my monster hands, yet I risk so much with my bluffing hands.


If the flop is Q88 and I have A8, I'll bet half the size of the pot and everyone will fold.

Were I sat a table with you I would identify this pretty quickly and be using it to my advantage. Betting large/Over betting as a bluff can work well for you, if done at the right time, against the right players, on the right board IF you also do this with your value hands (I refer here to live, as at micro online I would suggest not doing this AT ALL! In fact I would bet for VALUE only).

By betting large with your bluffs and small with your value hands you are giving away ALOT of information in your bet sizing. Try mixing it up or betting the same always for a period of time until you are more comfortable of this concept.

Also become more familiar with your opponents ranges, by the river you should have a good idea of your opponents range, and this makes deciding on bet sizing or even deciding whether to value bet at all much easier.

For example if villain has an inelastic range (ie. it is limited to either very few strong hands or complete air) and you are sitting on the nuts, a large bet here is best as your opponent is either going to call your bet regardless of size with his strong hand (Two Pair +) but fold to any bet with his weak even if tiny. When his range is more elastic you can value bet smaller, like 1/3 pot, to get looked up by his much wider range that you are ahead of a lot. Don't be to stubborn to fold rather than call down raises though, I find river raises as bluffs to be rare (and those that do usually do it again and again and again and once identified this can be exploited).

I would also be assessing your opponents playing style to and taking this into consideration when deciding the best course of action, for example when you are out of position, if your opponent is very aggressive and is betting nearly all of his range but folding the majority of it to a bet, let him do the betting for you. Against more passive players that like to call however this would be much less profitable.

There is more to take into consideration in these decisions than I think your currently are, however that is the beauty of poker and the fun is in learning, adapting and improving your game right? Well, the money is nice too :p!

Also the example given Q88 board there is more to take into consideration too. Such as are you in position or out of position? Do you have the betting lead? Is the pot multi way or heads up etc? Whats your stack size? What is the villains stack size? Whats your table image? What is the style and calibre of your opponents? Again there is so much variation here that the optimal play will differ each time.

Any other questions feel free to post or pm me :)

HTH
 
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In a stock market the advise is buy low and sell high but unfortunately many people buy because the stock seems very hot and the price keeps going up. Then when it falls, the get scared and sell it when it gets too low.
Your betting style reminds me of this a bit. You are betting small on your great hands and big bluffs on your small ones. I would quit altogether the bluffs until you KNOW when and against who they will work. I would also start betting larger on your good hands. If you bet small, it gives opponents an opportunity to catch a draw and then you end up loosing big. It might chase off opponents if you bet big from the start, but just take these small wins - again and again.
 
6

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Thank you all for your advice! Unfortunately, a lot of people recently have been bluffing me on the river. This one time playing 200 NL live, I was playing in position with something like a KT (no hearts) and the board was something like KJ69 with 2 hearts on the flop.

The villain checked to me on the flop and I made a standard 1/2 pot bet and he called. Then he checked the turn and I made another 1/2 pot bet and he called. Then a 2h came out on the river (3 hearts now) and this time he opened up with a bet of roughly 2/3 of the pot. I stopped to think and then I ended up folding. I showed him my hand and said "you have the flush don't you?" then he showed me a 78 offsuit and said "I was chasing the straight but I missed" and everyone on the table was telling him that he bluffed well and he outplayed me.

How do you prevent stuff like this from happening? Should I call more river bets, or was this just unlucky?
 
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subdylzep

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Cash tables are very tricky and i dont recommend them for a new player. It is something that can take several years to master or basically you just have to have a natural talent for it. The biggest thing you are looking for and really the only thing you are looking for on a cash table is value! That is it, just value. This can be obtained in many ways though. I have been playing poker for 10+ years and just have recently become profitable on cash tables. This is because i was tryign to play the cards or play them as a tournament and thats just never going to work. You need to make sure first of all that you have a deep deep bankroll in order to play cash games effectively. Professionals say you should have 50+ Max buy ins in order to play correctly, i say more near 100 would be good. But nonetheless, you need to do this in order to stay in pots that otherwise you may get scared out of just because you are behind in %, but the value may be there if you are getting 4-1 or 5-1 on the call and you are only 33% or 38% to hit the hand. Say if you havea nut flush draw and a gutshot straight draw and you are getting 4-1 on the call then you should always make the call. Yes you are behind but in the long run you hit the hand 1 out of 3 times and you are getting 4 -1 on the money, this means in the long run you'll be profitable with the call. Now when it comes to playing the table, you need to make sure you know who you are playing against because if you can't spot the donkey at the table, you are it. This is probably the case. Im not saying this because you aren't good, but because you are new. In a cash game you need not play against regulars, they are going to be there day in and day out looking for 1 or 2 players on the table that can make them money, many may only sit down for an hour or 2 and say ok, "ive made enough money, i'll come back tomorrow" Because lets face it, the casino isnt going anywhere and there is no need to continue to sit on a table if you aren't running good. In cash games though if you are running good you should sit as long as possible, whereas if you are running bad you should get up and come back another day, If you've struggled to make 100$ and its taken you about 5 hours, then get up and try again another day, this is what the professionals do. Now you need to make sure you know what kind of table you are playing on, If it is a tight table maybe you want to check the flop with your monster hands and let some people catch up if there are only a few to the flop, If there are a lot to the flop i suggest betting as someone is likely to have a draw of some sort and people love to throw in money where they think they can make more. If its a tight table i suggest betting with your monster hands and try to do it weakly and let someone aggressive come over the top of you, maybe you can make some good money that way. But really your problem is probably that you are playing all the cards you want to play and not taking into account your pot odds, implied odds, #of people to the flop, and the people you are playing against. You need to make sure you are going to get value if you are playing against them, so you really only want to play against a few new people on the tables, people who are inexperienced and are making massive mistakes(i.e YOU). These are the people that are going to eventually pay you off big and give you the most value. If you keep playing your suited connectors and any PP you have to the flop you arent going to be profitable if its always against a regular, they know the game and they are looking for just value. That is all that cash games are about, so really when i sit down at a $1-2 NL table, usually i spot 5-6 regulars that i know im not goign to play against much and 2-3 new people that im going to try to take advantage of with position and bet sizing. Next, im going to evaluate how these new people play, are they loose cannons, are they playing with scared money? or are they calling stations? once you know that you can adjust how you are going to play against them and what hands you want to play against them. I vary my bets according to calling stations often over betting, while when im playing with someone that has scared money i will bet 1/2 pot constantly over and over again because i know they are not going to come along unless they absolutely hit something. If they are playing very loose then i may just wait until i have a big hand andl et them overplay their top pair that they raised preflop or their overpair when i have 2 pair or a really nice draw i hit on the turn. Its all up to how the table is playing and the people on the table. Same as with implied odds, im not going to play with someone who only has say 50$ behind them with 99, i'll wait until i am playing against 2 people who have 300$ behind them and wait to hit that set cuz they are more likely to throw their money in the pot and there is more money to be made. It is all about value and where you should get your money in at when it comes to cash games. Please stop playing your cards and worrying about your bet sizing when it comes to these tables, because those are very small variables when it comes to cash games. Instead look at the players, spot the vulnerable ones, the weak ones, the scared ones, the regulars, and then play hands in good position with great pot odds and implied odds against them, this way you'll become much more profitable. Good luck at the tables.
 
ConDeck

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Cash tables are very tricky and i dont recommend them for a new player. It is something that can take several years to master or basically you just have to have a natural talent for it. The biggest thing you are looking for and really the only thing you are looking for on a cash table is value! That is it, just value. This can be obtained in many ways though. I have been playing poker for 10+ years and just have recently become profitable on cash tables. This is because i was tryign to play the cards or play them as a tournament and thats just never going to work. You need to make sure first of all that you have a deep deep bankroll in order to play cash games effectively. Professionals say you should have 50+ Max buy ins in order to play correctly, i say more near 100 would be good. But nonetheless, you need to do this in order to stay in pots that otherwise you may get scared out of just because you are behind in %, but the value may be there if you are getting 4-1 or 5-1 on the call and you are only 33% or 38% to hit the hand. Say if you havea nut flush draw and a gutshot straight draw and you are getting 4-1 on the call then you should always make the call. Yes you are behind but in the long run you hit the hand 1 out of 3 times and you are getting 4 -1 on the money, this means in the long run you'll be profitable with the call. Now when it comes to playing the table, you need to make sure you know who you are playing against because if you can't spot the donkey at the table, you are it. This is probably the case. Im not saying this because you aren't good, but because you are new. In a cash game you need not play against regulars, they are going to be there day in and day out looking for 1 or 2 players on the table that can make them money, many may only sit down for an hour or 2 and say ok, "ive made enough money, i'll come back tomorrow" Because lets face it, the casino isnt going anywhere and there is no need to continue to sit on a table if you aren't running good. In cash games though if you are running good you should sit as long as possible, whereas if you are running bad you should get up and come back another day, If you've struggled to make 100$ and its taken you about 5 hours, then get up and try again another day, this is what the professionals do. Now you need to make sure you know what kind of table you are playing on, If it is a tight table maybe you want to check the flop with your monster hands and let some people catch up if there are only a few to the flop, If there are a lot to the flop i suggest betting as someone is likely to have a draw of some sort and people love to throw in money where they think they can make more. If its a tight table i suggest betting with your monster hands and try to do it weakly and let someone aggressive come over the top of you, maybe you can make some good money that way. But really your problem is probably that you are playing all the cards you want to play and not taking into account your pot odds, implied odds, #of people to the flop, and the people you are playing against. You need to make sure you are going to get value if you are playing against them, so you really only want to play against a few new people on the tables, people who are inexperienced and are making massive mistakes(i.e YOU). These are the people that are going to eventually pay you off big and give you the most value. If you keep playing your suited connectors and any PP you have to the flop you arent going to be profitable if its always against a regular, they know the game and they are looking for just value. That is all that cash games are about, so really when i sit down at a $1-2 NL table, usually i spot 5-6 regulars that i know im not goign to play against much and 2-3 new people that im going to try to take advantage of with position and bet sizing. Next, im going to evaluate how these new people play, are they loose cannons, are they playing with scared money? or are they calling stations? once you know that you can adjust how you are going to play against them and what hands you want to play against them. I vary my bets according to calling stations often over betting, while when im playing with someone that has scared money i will bet 1/2 pot constantly over and over again because i know they are not going to come along unless they absolutely hit something. If they are playing very loose then i may just wait until i have a big hand andl et them overplay their top pair that they raised preflop or their overpair when i have 2 pair or a really nice draw i hit on the turn. Its all up to how the table is playing and the people on the table. Same as with implied odds, im not going to play with someone who only has say 50$ behind them with 99, i'll wait until i am playing against 2 people who have 300$ behind them and wait to hit that set cuz they are more likely to throw their money in the pot and there is more money to be made. It is all about value and where you should get your money in at when it comes to cash games. Please stop playing your cards and worrying about your bet sizing when it comes to these tables, because those are very small variables when it comes to cash games. Instead look at the players, spot the vulnerable ones, the weak ones, the scared ones, the regulars, and then play hands in good position with great pot odds and implied odds against them, this way you'll become much more profitable. Good luck at the tables.

Gave up reading that ^^ Paragraphs?
 
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