How to correctly determine preflop calling range using VPIP and PFR?

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Falcon1803

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The question may seem simple but I’ve been racking my brains for some time and can’t get over it.
As far as I understand VPIP is calculated by dividing the number of hands played by the number of the hands a player voluntarily puts money into the pot preflop. This includes: 1. Limps 2.Bets 3.Calls 4.3-bets, 4 bets, etc.
PRR is calculated by dividing the number of hands played by the number of the hands a player bets or raises preflop. This includes: 1. Bets 2. 3-bets, 4-bets, etc.
If it is UTG – it is simple since you are first to act and can either limp or bet to contribute to VPIP or both VPIP and PFR. So a player with VPIP/PFR 20/17 at this position bets 17% of hands and limps 3% of hands.
But what if it is button? You can enter the pot by any of 4 ways. Moreover, there are some hands which are good for both calling and betting from this position (AQ, small pairs, suited connectors, etc.). So the actual PFR figure will be dependant on the frequency of other players who act before you bet their hand. If they bet – you call, if nobody bets – you bet. In the first case it only VPIP is affected, in the second – both VPIP and PFR. So how can I find out villain's calling range from certain position by just looking at his stats??? Can anybody help me?
 
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Flsnookman

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Be careful as decent players change it up a lot to take advantage of people who think they have a good read on them. Also some tourny players will "train" a table further slanting stats. Good luck.
 
dj11

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Unless your tracker provides VPIP per position stats then you have to work it out. A basic VPIP averaged and played in MP is approximately what most trackers provide. Figure in tighter from EP and looser from LP, compare to standard starting hand charts and wala! You have his exact range.

Of course we know that is BS, but it is a somewhat reasonable generalization of a process.
 
Arjonius

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It's not simple because it's not simply a matter of calling all the time with a particular range vs an opponent with a particular VPIP and PFR. For instance, some possible considerations are whether you'll have position, the players still left to act after you, the amount you're thinking of calling, the relative stack sizes, how this opponent reacts to 3-bets, etc.
 
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Falcon1803

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It's not simple because it's not simply a matter of calling all the time with a particular range vs an opponent with a particular VPIP and PFR. For instance, some possible considerations are whether you'll have position, the players still left to act after you, the amount you're thinking of calling, the relative stack sizes, how this opponent reacts to 3-bets, etc.
Yes, but even if we ignore these considerations I don't understand how we can determine calling range because of what I wrote before.
 
DaReKa

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Subtract PFR from VPIP for calling/limping range. That should give you the % of hands they're calling or limping with. To figure out what kind of hands make up that %, take note of what they show down with, or make assumptions about what they might have based on how they play a hand when it doesn't make it to showdown. When you have more information about what kind of hands they're calling with, construct a likely range.
 
DaReKa

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**EDIT** Okay.. it's not be that simple, as you thought.. Upon racking my brain I think the way I was thinking was wrong. If someone's VPIP was 35 and PFR 30, that doesn't give them a 5% Cold calling range, because it doesn't include all the times they would have cold called but no one bet in front of them. Well... if you have HEM2 the cold call stat will be calculated for you. It will be under the PFR stat in the pre flop section of the stat window that pops up when you hover over stats in the HUD.

To calculate it yourself.. you would take the number of times they called a raise and divide by the number of times there was a raise to call in the first place.
 
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Falcon1803

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Subtract PFR from VPIP for calling/limping range. That should give you the % of hands they're calling or limping with. To figure out what kind of hands make up that %, take note of what they show down with, or make assumptions about what they might have based on how they play a hand when it doesn't make it to showdown. When you have more information about what kind of hands they're calling with, construct a likely range.
Sorry, I'm still in the dark... Maybe we are talking at cross purposes... let me give you an example....
Let's say I have 100 hands seated on Button.
Suppose I'm calling with only small and medium pairs, suited broadway, AQ
and betting with these plus high pairs J-J-AA plus AK (which I'm 3-betting when there is a bet before me). And I never limp.
Lets say during an infinitly long session I enter the pot from the button only with these hands: 22 (0,45%),33 (0,45%),44 (0,45%),55 (0,45%), 66 (0,45)%,77 (0,45)% ,88 0,45%), 99 (0,45%) 10-10 (0,45%) KQ (1,2%), AJ (1,2%), QJs (0,3%), AQ (1,2%), AK (1,2%), JJ (0,45%), QQ (0,34%), KK (0,45%), AA (0,45%). This range is 13*0,45%+4*1,2%+0,3%=11%.
Lets's assume in half of those occasions I'm first to act, in the other half - there's a bet before me.
Then in the first half my VPIP and PFR will be the same - 11%,
in the second half I will 3 bet 3% and call 8%.
If we put this figures together my stats from this position will be:
VPIP 11%, PFR 7% ((3+11)/2), 3 bet 3%.
How on earth from these figures can a villain determine my calling range?
11%-7%=4%!!! But it is not my calling range here!!! It is 8% (11%-3%)!!!
 
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Falcon1803

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**EDIT** Okay.. it's not be that simple, as you thought.. Upon racking my brain I think the way I was thinking was wrong. If someone's VPIP was 35 and PFR 30, that doesn't give them a 5% Cold calling range, because it doesn't include all the times they would have cold called but no one bet in front of them. Well... if you have HEM2 the cold call stat will be calculated for you. It will be under the PFR stat in the pre flop section of the stat window that pops up when you hover over stats in the HUD.

To calculate it yourself.. you would take the number of times they called a raise and divide by the number of times there was a raise to call in the first place.
sorry... finished typing and then saw your reply:))
 
DaReKa

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sorry... finished typing and then saw your reply:))
Mhm, so in your example there was a raise in front half the time, so you take the difference between VPIP and PFR (the % they called) and multiply by two. for 8%. It works!
 
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Falcon1803

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I also thought about cold call stat.... And I have it on my HEM HUD..... But this gives me a questuon - what is VPIP from a certain position there for??? By PFR and 3-bet stats I can calculate the range of betting and 3 betting... Cold call stat gives me information about calling range.... then I don't need VPIP at all... only for a rough estimate of category of the player...
 
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Falcon1803

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Mhm, so in your example there was a raise in front half the time, so you take the difference between VPIP and PFR (the % they called) and multiply by two. for 8%. It works!

yeah... it works in my example because you know that I assumed 50-50 distribution.... but at a real table you can't know...
 
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Falcon1803

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and there's another thing that worries me... About 3 bets....
Should I always divide the 3-bet stat figure into 2 or other rough figure to determine value 3-bet range because the stat also contains a portion of bluff-3bet range?
 
DaReKa

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yeah... it works in my example because you know that I assumed 50-50 distribution.... but at a real table you can't know...
You mean live or without a HUD? Yeah, it would take some pretty incredible recall to figure it out on the fly, but if you have a HUD that will do it for you and you figure out typical player tendencies, you can categorize players into various types to assign ranges to players without having them perfectly calculated by a HUD, and exploit them effectively even when you don't have exact stats on hand.
 
DaReKa

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and there's another thing that worries me... About 3 bets....
Should I always divide the 3-bet stat figure into 2 or other rough figure to determine value 3-bet range because the stat also contains a portion of bluff-3bet range?
Oh, you definitely shouldn't always divide by 2 and assume it's half value/half bluff. I mean.. sometimes people only 3bet for value. And sometimes people are going to be 3betting pretty wide for value against very loose players. I can't really say exactly how you should go about figuring out a villain's 3bet range though. It's unlikely his 3bet range will be the same vs. two different opponents. I guess just use logic to try to figure it out.
 
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Falcon1803

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Thank you!!! That helps and supports my thoughts....
You know I read a lot and analyze a lot.... but i'm still a losing player both live and online... I must be doing something seriously wrong....
 
DaReKa

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Thank you!!! That helps and supports my thoughts....
You know I read a lot and analyze a lot.... but i'm still a losing player both live and online... I must be doing something seriously wrong....
Keep at it :) I am confident that anyone who puts in the work can become a great player.
 
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