How to combat fish floater who'll play any two cards?

blueskies

blueskies

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Ok, it may sound like a stupid question because the easy answer is hit a hand and then bet, bet, bet!

But in reality, often you have cold streaks where every flop looks bad for you.

For example, I just finished a session at a 10NL 6-handed table. I literally won a quarter but it was a frustrating 100 hands.

This guy who sits directly across from me plays nearly every single hand. He differs from the typical calling station in that he will often float the flop and flop the turn and then if aggressor checks river, he'll bet pot to take it down.

One such hand, I had JJ in SB. He limps as usual. I raise to 40c and he calls. Flop comes 99Q with two clubs. I lead out with a 2/3 pot bet. He flats. The turn is the ace of clubs. I check. He bets pot and I fold. He probably had me here but this is his MO. In hindsight I probably should just check/call him.

This follows a hand a few mins earlier where in the same situation I raised him with QQ. This time BB was also involved. An A hit on the flop and I check folded after BB bet. (BB is not crazy so I gave him credit)

I didn't really butt heads with the fish much because I knew I had no fold equity, and since I ran card dead after the JJ hand, I basically observed him use his technique to take down many pots.

Because he's so loose, the other players sometimes went to showdown with junk thinking he has nothing and he was able to win some pots with garbage like a pair of 6s with 3 overcards on the board and even ace high on a two-paired board.

He even plays KK the same way as I saw him show down a hand where he just limped in from sb after someone else had limped. And he just called 3 bets after that.

You can beat him if you catch a good piece of the board, but what if you don't? With next to no fold equity, such a player really takes weapons away from the arsenal.

Assuming that you raise with a hand like AK and the board is disjointed like 369 rainbow, and you are OOP, how do you play it? You know he will call your flop bet and he called you with anything so there's no range to speak of. He could very well have a 3. Do you keep betting small for value? Or just check/fold to his pot sized bet and wait for another chance?

And yes that "over the long run you'll get him" plattitude answer is fine, but I just sat there for 100 hands and saw him build up one nice pile doing everything against the book.
 
WVHillbilly

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Well I certainly hope you were playing a lot more hands against him than just the premiums you mentioned. Against a guy like this I'd open all Ax/Kx hands most Qxs hands if I had a reasonable chance of getting heads-up with him and play them strong when you hit TP. Sounds like making TP and bet/bet/ ch/calling would be best against him.
 
archangelzx

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Having the same problem dude, they always seem to catch their cards, I can't seem to win a showdown at all.
 
okeedokalee

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Sounds like you were playing against a small ball opponent.

They play as many cheap flops as possible and one of the tactics is when a threatening card hits the turn or river then they raise to near a pot bet, if you play back at him he will fold. But this type of player figures you are tight enough to fold.

Try 3-betting if your opponent folds you will probably figure him for playing small ball.If he 4bets then you will know his raises are genuine.

It is a great style to play if you know your opponents are tight enough to give up the pot.
 
Arjonius

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I doubt there's a perfect way to play someone loose who is willing to play sizable pots with modest hands, and of course, it's harder when you don't have position.

Since he has a wide range, you can bet for value somewhat lighter than usual, or try to keep the pots smaller so it costs less to call when you do so lighter as well. You can check-raise him once in a while, also lighter than usual, including where you c-bet the flop then check the turn to encourage him to try to blow you out of the pot.

Players like this are beatable if you're willing to accept increased variance. Or you can nit up and hope he's not good enough to notice, in which case, he may still pay you off when you hit a strong hand, provided he doesn't give his money to anyone else while you're waiting.
 
JamesDaBear

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Get in position with him as much as possible. Then he can't really float you and you can better control the size of his potential pot-sized bets. The best thing about him being across the table from you, is it's the best place for him to be for you to practice avoidance.
 
Emrald Onyxx

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Also consider why he's playing this way. Most of these players play this way because of 3 things.
1: They can afford it. Consider their bankroll, and not their stack on the table. In most cases, players that play this style have an appropriate bankroll backing their stack. This means they are comfortable spending a little more money up front to see the flop and make a decision with more than 2 cards. Because as we all know, being a calling station requires more than 2 cards to pay off. The small ball style is explained very well by Daniel Negreanu in his book Power Hold'em Strategy. And can explain better ways around this player. (Or may even turn you to the dark side:eek:)
2: They see your tells. Some may be trying to get in every hand because they see how easy it is to push the table around after the flop. Again, lots of small pots can add up.
3: They are on tilt and it's temporary. Depending on how long you have really been playing them and what has recently happpened at the table, this easy to detect. Play when you can get in a good hand and keep your head up to loose betting.
4: They just don't know any better..... Don't buy in to this one. It's usually a lie. But every now and then, at the lower levels, it's possible. Hell I guess anything is. I remember my fiance telling me how pretty the beach scene on FT was as she clicked all in preflop with 51 UTG during her first/last time she ever played.

Here's some stats that might help ya.......... https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/whats-your-take-these-stats-159317/
 
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WVHillbilly

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Seriously you guys are making playing against idiots seem hard when it's the easiest thing in the world; Make TP (or in some cases middle pair), don't fold. Yes, sometimes you will be beat but that's why we practice good BRM.

Example: Super fish described in OP limps and we iso with A9o. Flop is AT3. He checks we bet 3/4 pot, he calls. Turn is J. He checks we bet 3/4 pot, he calls. River is 6. He pots river. We snap call and profit.
 
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i would be careful calling him a fish if he was employing a strategy that was working against that particular table

he may have played differently if didn't view the table as tight
 
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Iso + widen value range + become station with average holdings = $$$
 
WVHillbilly

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i would be careful calling him a fish if he was employing a strategy that was working against that particular table

he may have played differently if didn't view the table as tight
No if he's playing almost every hand he was a fish.
 
jolubman

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The biggest problem is that you don't know when he has something or not. Even fish get aces. As outlined above play to counter his actions.
 
WVHillbilly

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The biggest problem is that you don't know when he has something or not. Even fish get aces. As outlined above play to counter his actions.
Yes he always has a range of hands. That includes Aces. But ON AVERAGE we will have his range crushed with decent TP hands or better. So ON AVERAGE we will win lots of money. No we will NOT win every hand.
 
WVUsellers3

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Yes he always has a range of hands. That includes Aces. But ON AVERAGE we will have his range crushed with decent TP hands or better. So ON AVERAGE we will win lots of money. No we will NOT win every hand.
Aka, don't fret about losing a little bit of money one time if the other 9 times we win lotsa money.
 
dj11

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The guy was obviously a short stacker and is playing with your money.....
 
blueskies

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I looked him up afterwards and he's lost 4 figures money so he is definitely a fish.

Maybe it's cuz I am on a bad run but lately I just can't beat these guys. And I lose the most money to these guys because I think I end up getting frustrated and getting too aggressive when I finally have something.

E.g. I had JJ on BB. A maniac raises to 14c, SB (another of these play any two hands types) flats. I have seen maniac raise utg with Ax and Kx and I know sb calls 3 bets liberally. I didn't want to be OOP in a 3 way pot where Q, K, A could easily hit and I can't really put either of them on any range with any confidence, so I shoved it expecting to be ahead even if called by hands like KT or 88. Maniac folds, SB flips over AA.

Perhaps the better play here is just to value 3 bet and hope no overcards falls and then shove flop?

Another hand, I had 69 on BB. 3 people limp so I check. I flop 699. Str and flush draw. Pretty good huh? I bet half the pot hoping to entice draws to chase. Only CO calls.

Q hits on the turn. I bet 2/3 pot he calls. An ace hits on the river, which completes a would be flush draw. I was worried he Q9 or A9 but I felt it was more likely he had two spades (since most flopped trips with strong kickers and a draw on the board would raise) or something mediocre that would fold to a third barrel anyway so I shoved it. He flips over QQ... which I in no way put him on.

I've also run into AA with QQ and KK in the last two days.

It's just very frustrating because these guys are likely big money losers judging by how they play yet I am getting reamed by them.
 
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Def don't shove for 100BB because you don't like playing post-flop with JJ against fish.
 
blueskies

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Just 75 BB. If I just call to try to set mine, I end up 3way OOP against two very wide ranges. So would I just check call everything? It's impossible to read them since their range is 80% of hands at least and they don't play as I would expect.

I understand the point that I might fold out worse and get called by QQ+, but given their huge ranges, I expect to be getting in there good since their raising/calling range is wide. I have seen them (the maniac) stack off with KTsuited, A5 suited, 99, etc.

I rather have this than go to the flop that would have about half a chance of having an overcard and not knowing where I am. If I bet I will get floated. And I definitely don't like just check/calling. And just folding JJ to any aggression is not such a great option either.

So while shoving might be over-aggressive, I don't think it's horrible in this situation.
 
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BlueNowhere

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It's not that it's over aggresive, it's just ridiculously sub optimal. If a massive fish is at a high stakes table you don't see the pros randomly spaz out and 3-bet AI pre with any hand, let alone a good value hand like JJ.
 
Emrald Onyxx

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Sorry WV, but it's answers like this that get people just learning poker in trouble.

Sorry OP, but the information you have given has a sample size issue (something WV likes to say). One hand is all that you have described, and in that hand you played with mistakes post flop. I'm seriously not trying to criticize you about it, but even you yourself said that you played it wrong and gave a "what I should'a done" explanation afterwords.

We can take your word for it and just say that the villain in this case is a fish, because honestly only you can know. So I just want to point out that the definition of a fish is someone that makes mistakes that cost him money.... However, in the hand you described: the villain is not the one making the mistakes.

To better understand this; what is the villain doing right?
First of all, he's playing with a plan.
Secondly, he has position,
Third and most importantly, he has the advantage of the board's texture after the flop. (Meaning he has unlimited options on for playing reactive poker. he can bet if you check, he can raise if you bet, and he can fold at any time. This puts all the stress on his opponent)

Now what mistakes has the villain made?
None. At least none described in the op. Sure you say he has been playing a lot of preflop hands, but you also stated after 100 hands he has a nice stack. Again sample size suggest that you don't have enough info to really make a judgement on his play style, but it does point out that he is currently ahead playing this way. Maybe it's because he's playing the table with each situation, and not just at random based on his cards as you seem to think.

There were a few suggestions above that can help you get the answers you are looking for. But remember that each time the play is on you, you must be willing to give each decision your best effort to read the situation. Because in the end, the guy everyone is really calling the fish, is the guy that makes the most mistakes.

EDIT: I'm not saying WV has the wrong answer (because the light 3 bet is the best answer on how to learn more about the villain's thresholds to fold) ....I'm .just not agreeing with he statement that the villain is automatically a fish.
 
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BlueNowhere

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Sorry WV, but it's answers like this that get people just learning poker in trouble.

Sorry OP, but the information you have given has a sample size issue (something WV likes to say). One hand is all that you have described, and in that hand you played with mistakes post flop. I'm seriously not trying to criticize you about it, but even you yourself said that you played it wrong and gave a "what I should'a done" explanation afterwords.

We can take your word for it and just say that the villain in this case is a fish, because honestly only you can know. So I just want to point out that the definition of a fish is someone that makes mistakes that cost him money.... However, in the hand you described: the villain is not the one making the mistakes.

To better understand this; what is the villain doing right?
First of all, he's playing with a plan.
Secondly, he has position,
Third and most importantly, he has the advantage of the board's texture after the flop. (Meaning he has unlimited options on for playing reactive poker. he can bet if you check, he can raise if you bet, and he can fold at any time. This puts all the stress on his opponent)

Now what mistakes has the villain made?
None. At least none described in the op. Sure you say he has been playing a lot of preflop hands, but you also stated after 100 hands he has a nice stack. Again sample size suggest that you don't have enough info to really make a judgement on his play style, but it does point out that he is currently ahead playing this way. Maybe it's because he's playing the table with each situation, and not just at random based on his cards as you seem to think.

There were a few suggestions above that can help you get the answers you are looking for. But remember that each time the play is on you, you must be willing to give each decision your best effort to read the situation. Because in the end, the guy everyone is really calling the fish, is the guy that makes the most mistakes.

EDIT: I'm not saying WV has the wrong answer (because the light 3 bet is the best answer on how to learn more about the villain's thresholds to fold) ....I'm .just not agreeing with he statement that the villain is automatically a fish.

He limped with KK, he also limped frequently with average holdings as well as playing ATC, of course he was a fish. Even if he plays a hand perfectly on every street it probably wasn't for the right reasons that he took the line he did.
 
dwbrown7680

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Ummm the guy very well could be a fish, or he could be a hyper aggro genius but either way with what you've described in the few hands here the biggest problem I'd guess you have is twofold:

1) Playing out of position more than you should. If you have PT3 or HEM check your position stats and see how your vpip ranges from each position, it should be pretty small (8-12%) in SB/BB and really large in CO/Btn (33-40%).

2) When you do find an acceptable time to play out of position you just don't know how to proceed accordingly and your opponent is taking advantage of it.

Lastly, try not to be results oriented in letting one or two hands define what you think or how you play.
 
Emrald Onyxx

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He's a fish. Missed that part about the Ks. :eek:
 
blueskies

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It's not that it's over aggresive, it's just ridiculously sub optimal. If a massive fish is at a high stakes table you don't see the pros randomly spaz out and 3-bet AI pre with any hand, let alone a good value hand like JJ.

But we are talking about micros where like I said, these guys will call with underpairs and broadway cards AND they will play bottom pair and just a pair of 9s strong. Would you just call three barrels with JJ? If you were me and had JcJd there, what actions would you take? Let's say you three bet (bet sizing up to you), get called by both and the flop is Ks8h7h, what do you do? Can you walk me through several hypothetical situations?
 
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But we are talking about micros where like I said, these guys will call with underpairs and broadway cards AND they will play bottom pair and just a pair of 9s strong. Would you just call three barrels with JJ? If you were me and had JcJd there, what actions would you take? Let's say you three bet (bet sizing up to you), get called by both and the flop is Ks8h7h, what do you do? Can you walk me through several hypothetical situations?

I would 3-bet big, get SPR ratio as small as poss. I'd stack off on more or less every flop if his range is as weak as you say and he isn't folding.
 
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