Help for PLO8 and HORSE game...

Here's a free calculator for PLO8 http://www.reviewpokerrooms.com/poker-games/omaha-hi-lo/point-count-calculator.html

It's not the usual post-play analysis kind. It's for pre-play. Nice for if you're just learning PLO8 or if PLO8's your weak spot in HORSE.

I was using the system with a regular calculator b4 and it was tedious and only good post play, so I abandoned it in lieu of personal preferences which actually do fit into the point system very well(just easier and faster really). But I still use the system to try and strengthen my game. Found this on accident.

Think of it as training wheels until you get a handle on when to just call or when to raise.

PLO8 is not part of HORSE. FLO8 is though.

Sorry, my bad, typo. Meant to put O8. Been playing PLO8 almost exclusively. Thanks for the correction. The calculator actually works for O8. But you get the idea now?

very nice, thanks for this. flo8 is probably the weakest part of my horse game and its mainly because of my play preflop. I'm just not picking good enough hands pre and putting my opponents on a hand range is difficult as well. I plugged in a few hands and the point system it uses is very usefull. Thanks again.

I gotta say I think the point system is fairly garbagey.

I took a look at that calculator. I dont like it that much.
I would recomend this article for beginners in PLO8:
http://www.thehendonmob.com/poker_tips/thoughts_on_omaha-8_by_jennifer_harman

The points system alone is not a good gauge for playable hands in LO8 or PLO8. So many other factors come into play. Also pre flop play is such a small part of the 08 game as most hands are really close pre flop with the exception of A2 hands and strong A suited high hands.

Once the flop is out if you are not prepared to throw away even the best of the pre flop hands when you miss you will lose a lot of money / chips.

Using a points system or calculator like this for LO8 or PLO8 is good for reading your hand which can sometimes be confusing even to the most experienced players but please do not use it to gauge if you are holding the winning hand.

I need for you to understand that the system isn't designed to play the hands for you. It's simply designed to give you a good idea of when to enter pots, call raises, and raise yourself. It's not the holy grail. It's a tool, a starting point. Where you end up once you leave the starting point is partly up to you, and partly up to fate.

The first and maybe most important thing it does is break people of overvaluing their wheel cards without backup. The second thing it does is get you to thinking about a tight aggressive/aggressive game. My hand that's only good for 24% win pre-flop at a full table, suddenly shoots up to well over 60% to win against one or two opponents. What's great about hands with 32pts + is that you can trap, and the flop almost doesn't matter. Yeah, you've gotta be able to get away from a hand if the board's flushing hi and you've got an overpair with outs to a lo and they're ds to the wrong suit. But that should be common sense. It's even easier than folding AKs in texas hold em when you suspect someone has AA or KK pre-flop.

The reason I don't absolutely need the system is that after a little while playing I realized that I needed backup for my hands and which hands offer backup. It's that simple. Started seeing how to make all 4 cards work together, and unless things get flukish, I can get away from just about anything now(couldn't before though). However, I'd have loved to have this calculator when I first started and it's still useful, and even fun to use.

BTW, anyone who prefers Jennifer Harman's thoughts on Omaha8 article to some of the better articles out there or this system, isn't playing anywhere near the bottom with the maniacs and fish. KQJT is the kiss of death at the bottom, almost as much as big or middle trips with an unsuited and unconnected kicker. And A2xx rainbow + unconnected? Congratulations, you just lost while winning. It's called getting quartered, and after awhile you'll learn to hate it.

There are only two main objectives(and yes many subtleties, but these objectives should ring loudly in your ears) - Win hi(gets quartered less than lo) or scoop. The only lo exception(and yes I've done the wrong thing and will again) is when the pot's too big to back out of, and/or you've invested too much. Then you stay in and take your quarter cuz it'll leave you with a lot more chips than if you back out just a little too late.

The system isn't the end all be all, but it does help. Eventually, when I'm an old lady wearing sequined sweaters and smoking brown cigarettes while drinking Singapore Slings, I'll be able to play any and every hand to perfection. Right about that time, someone catching a one outer to beat me for hi and lo will just roll off my back the way water rolls off a duck's back. Until then, I pretty much like to have a good idea of where I am in a hand from start to finish, and every little bit helps. Including a slightly flawed point system that still puts me in the ball park for win % at a full table.

I will post what i found on PLO8, a bit later. It may help you like it did for me.
It will be posted after i get up, with the link.

Ok ND I think I disagree with you on every single point.
And it seems you are not that interested in improving your strategy.

kidkvno1 said:

I will post what i found on PLO8, a bit later. It may help you like it did for me.
It will be posted after i get up, with the link.

Click to expand...

Site 1 has just about everything covered.
http://www.omahaplanet.com/omaha_high_low/omaha_hi_lo.html
http://www.playwinningpoker.com/omaha/pot-limit/plo8/
both links should be ok, for CC.
thought i lost the one for starting hands..

only_bridge said:

Ok ND I think I disagree with you on every single point.
And it seems you are not that interested in improving your strategy.

Click to expand...

Don't be afraid to disagree. Don't think that you disagree, simply disagree. Fair enough? Also, if you're going to disagree and criticize, that's fine and dandy. I actually don't mind being corrected on a lot of points. Problem, you're failing to correct and failing to point out where and how I'm wrong. Ergo, it really doesn't matter if I'm interested in improving my strategy as you won't be contributing to it's improvement or lack thereof.

Thanks for the links kidvkno1. I'm clicking them right after I post this.

N.D. said:

Don't be afraid to disagree. Don't think that you disagree, simply disagree. Fair enough? Also, if you're going to disagree and criticize, that's fine and dandy. I actually don't mind being corrected on a lot of points. Problem, you're failing to correct and failing to point out where and how I'm wrong. Ergo, it really doesn't matter if I'm interested in improving my strategy as you won't be contributing to it's improvement or lack thereof.

Click to expand...

Ok, my response wasnt exactly the most informative or diplomatic answer, but the way you critizised Jennifer Harmans article, well thats where I disagree with you.
Jennifer Harman is one of the best players and strategy authors around.
She wrote the limit section in 'Super System II', and she has, and has had, great success at the poker tables.
And the part where you complain her advicing you to play A2xx, well read the article again. She advices you not to play that hand.
(A2xx actually works very well in freerolls (my own experience))

Editing to respond...

Funny, you take offense to my critique because Jennifer's very well respected and good. There's a certain level of irony because when I put my hormones aside, Jennifer's my absolute favorite pro...

But I'm not afraid to disagree with her. She's a human being ya know. Heck, I told a friend who has had a kidney transplant about her. I thought she could maybe lend him a bit of inspiration/strength. He was shocked that she had babies after a kidney transplant. He explained that the new kidney is placed lower than the original. He said she was very daring.

I'm not afraid to criticize because I play with absolute beginners every day, and not too very long ago I was an absolute beginner too. I'm not claiming pro status or anything. I'm just coming from a place that Jennifer's never been to. A place where I watch people chasing with their A2xx rainbow(and I don't actually hate that if it's A234 or A235 rainbow because of the insurance).

She doesn't say to not play it. She says to play it at loose tables. I tell you, even with everyone else playing fast and loose it's a recipe for disaster! It's the same with KQJT. There's a reason why these hands score low and it's not just because they don't win very often. That's the tip of the iceberg. They don't win very often because there's almost always a much better hand that will beat you. Because they don't have good insurance. I'll take KKQJ or KKJT and definitely double suited over KQJT any day. If I don't have a big pair, my boat's almost sure to be beat by a better boat. My straight can't be beat by a better straight, that's true, but the board pairs so very much in o8 and on top of that it loves to flush. I want backup, even though I don't consider myself to be an absolute beginner.

And Jennifer's recommending these hands to beginners!? These hands that can be so hard to get away from? To beginners? She's very smart, and very talented. She's also incredibly strong and brave. But you need to understand, she practically cut her teeth on a dealer's button. Played poker for quite a bit of money on her daddy's lap, against grown men when she was just a little girl.

She's great. No doubt about that. But can she really empathize with true beginners or real beginners' levels?

Obviously starting hand strength has some importance in O8, but there are really three types of hands from a pre flop perspective.

1. Hands you shouldn't play.
2. Hands you need to raise with.
3. Hands you REALLY shouldn't play.

Your point about the low limits being different than the big games is obviously a good one. And actually could lead into a favorite argument of mine dealing with whether it's better to lean to beat the game in general, or the stakes, or the table. But another day for that one.

For me figuring out what to play is far easier done by just understanding the dynamics of the game than by using a chart or point system. Now, before you get mad at me for bashing point systems... I get it. They help you know what hands are valuable pre flop.

But if you were to graph pre flop hand strength in Texas Hold'em I think you would see sort of a logarithmic line. Most hands are trash. A few hands are playable. Very few hands are really great pre flop.

O8 is a very different beast. Almost ANY hand has a fairly large potential to have a chance at winning at least half the pot. As you obviously know the question is more about what hands are likely to get you in trouble and which are likely to create edges.

If I am playing primarily from something like a point system, I am making myself a sitting duck. Even at the lowest limits on stars I know all the PLO8 regs who are basically using points. And I can avoid them quite easily. Beyond this, I can exploit them by doing thing as simple as betting the pot when a card comes that changes the top hand or takes away the low, JUST because I know what their formula will tell them to do when I bet that way.

But IMHO the biggest caveat to using a point system (see i said 'caveat'. Not problem, or even weakness) is the fact that it might draw your mind away from the WONDERFUL fact that O8 is a POSTFLOP game. The game is fought most effectively after some cards hit the felt. In fact there are two things that make me salivate wetly... when i see people overvaluing big pairs preflop, and when a fish sits down intent on playing a hyper aggressive NLHE style preflop game. I LOVE picking my spots to take their money when they will see me as a fish "sucking out" on them.

Which brings me to my last little bit...

Poker in general, and especially o8 is a game of finding, or creating edges. Position, and table dynamics is more important, IMHO to the cards you start with. You can isolate the guy who just 3bet his AA97r or you can hammer the nits blinds, or you can freeroll youself into someones entire stack by drawing when you have the odds to do so. All three of these are ways to outplay the guy using a 'system'.

Best advice you can give beginners about starting hands in O8 is probably to fold fold fold.
When I played freerolls people limped, and called any raise with about 99% of their hands.

Actually I won't bite your head off. It's more than okay to disagree, and in poker like much of life two people can have opposite opinions and both be right(but not many realize that's the case). Odd yeah?

I do get what you're saying. I even apply it when not playing short stack. But understand that while I love it overall, I hate it for beginners and short stacks. The beginner has to not lose all their money while trying to learn. Nit-tight play for a beginner's really great and on top of that in omaha nit tight's still a lot looser than in NLHE. I look at my stats and even when I'm really tight, they're higher than NLHE(where my game's considered to be a little on the loose side).

As a short stack I wanna start getting my chips in with an edge and finish getting them in with a hand that flops good and can only get better(backup you know?).

See, I think there's a difference between looser and loose. I also feel like a lot of people read/hear "looser" and think it gives them carte blanche to be massive calling stations and get their chips in bad, ya know? For instance with fixed limit games, some people just completely avoid hand selection all together, while others focus on it too much(waiting for pure-premium-gold). The idea's to be looser, not necessarily loose. And the board's so much more important in fixed limit games. But still, I feel it's important to know when your hand's probably not going to work out for you.

I just realized that until my last post I completely forgot about short stacks. Short stacking is necessary in all the games(save for fl) until you can afford to play with a decent stack. And weird as it sounds, it seems to pay better in PLO8 and even PLO. I'm still having money management problems/tilt issues, but really, when you're short stacking good in PLO or PLO8 you get paid so much more for great hands.

It also occurs to me that I really, really don't disagree with capslock.

And yeah, mainly at the bottom and I think it's cuz a couple of pennies or a dime are pretty worthless to most people, folks just keep throwing away chips(they may be cheap chips, but they're still chips and to me that makes them important). Most are beginners, and they just keep tossing those pennies and dimes. By the end of a session they've thrown away dollars. By the end of a month, probably tens of dollars, up to around $100 and maybe more. All because they were happy to share, and thought the rake was minimal, and didn't use any common sense or hand selection at all. It really adds up though.

Whenever someone says they hate sharing, I tell them they picked the wrong game. You have to share in o8. What I don't tell them is that I think it was stupid to stay in for just the lo half against a single opponent(usually results in this nasty situation where you win the hand but lose money to the rake, even with rakeback I don't think it should be done too much).

And that leads me to an obvious mistake that I've made and I'm sure many have made. If you're chasing a hand to the river and your opponent has made it quite obvious that they have the lo(but it's also obviously just the lo, but they won't fold), try to not get frisky unless you've got a scooping hand. Just because we have to share with each other doesn't mean that we have to share excessively with the site.

That's more at the bottom though. The higher you get the more chances you have to bluff and semi-bluff. But at the bottom you can only bluff me, and I'm the only one who's even remotely afraid of getting quartered. Save your bluffs and friskiness until you're at a level where they'll actually work. It's very rare that my pumping the pot to the river results in a successful semi-bluff. I can't remember last all out bluff in PLO8. I know I did it at one point, but dang it was a long time ago.

YW, I know if i have a bad day in NL, i can open up a PLO8, or PLO, win it back.
I will try to find the hand chart for the best hands to play.
So true on bluffing, even if you get nailed, when you have a top hand you get payed off big time. I have been reading more on PLO8, PLO, and i'm getting alot better now.

The funny thing about PLO8 is that you don't have to get caught bluffing to get paid off big time. Even at full tables there are frequently players with 2nd nut hi + 2nd or 3rd nut lo and so on and so forth, who are more than happy to call or even bet and raise for you...

It's another aspect of why I think that for a $0-$XXk challenge, PLO and PLO8 are better bets than texas hold 'em. Granted, it's still poker, and still a gamble, but when you do get your chips in good and your hand holds up(short stacking) you're leaving with way more than 2x your buy-in.

I'm still getting the hang of table selection though, which makes PLO and PLO8 even better bets.

Beyond profitability, imho PLO and PLO8 are just a lot more fun. I like a good fixed limit SNG too. Never enough loot for regular fixed limit games, yet.

Have you been playing any of the PLO or PLO8 sng's? Nobody seems to understand the part of tournaments where the idea is to bust people out. I just think that when the short stack's in and everybody else is in too, unless you've got a really great hand that flopped good you shouldn't be chasing people out. This I see over and over again, a hand where the short stack would have been quartered or at least have had to chop, they double up because someone decides to get frisky. It's irksome.

Yep, i've been playing PLO8 SnGs, DoNs. The PLO8 DoNs go so quick.


Starting hand guide for Limit Omaha Hi-Lo (full table, 8-10 players)
The best starting hands in Omaha Hi-Lo are A-A-2-3 double-suited followed by A-A-2-4 double-suited. This kind of hand is very strong because it can be played for both high and low, which gives it great scoop potential. Of course, being suited or (even better) double-suited adds value to every hand.
Good starting hands
A-A-2-x
A-A-3-x
A-A-4-5
A-2-3-x
A-2-K-K
A-2-Q-Q
A-2-J-J
A-3-4-5
A-A-x-x
A-2-K-Q
A-2-K-J
A-2-x-x (suited ace)
A-3-K-K
A-3-4-x
2-3-4-5 (fold if there is no ace on the flop)
J-Q-K-A
T-J-Q-K
K-K-Q-J
Q-J-T-9
2-3-4-x (fold if there is no ace on the flop)http://www.pokerlistings.com/limit-omaha-high-low

In order to qualify for the low half of the pot, the low hand must be 8, 7, 6, 5, 4 or lower. That's why this game is called "8 or better", or simply "Omaha 8".

Or... why not:

Hands with A2 (suited ace if that's it -- suited aces are always a good bonus)
Any four wheel cards. (or 3 with aces or when double suited)
Any four broadway cards.
Avoid hands with mostly middle cards (5689, 78JQ)

And, I mean.. once you play a few hundred hands you start to see how things tend to hook up. AND you see how things tend to SEEM to hook up where you get killed.

The reason we don't play 789T is any cards that make your straight make better straights and/or nut lows.

I don't know why I am so impelled to keep it simple.

cAPSLOCK said:

And, I mean.. once you play a few hundred hands you start to see how things tend to hook up. AND you see how things tend to SEEM to hook up where you get killed.



I don't know why I am so impelled to keep it simple.

Click to expand...

I took note of that to..
Yep keeping it simple works out alot.