Help with lots of stuff.

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CaptainKout

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Ok. So I've been studying my ass off. I play as much as I can usually 200 hands a day single table (two if I'm feeling frisky)4nl 6max and try to run through the correct thought process every hand but I keep losing. Why? A lot of reasons obviously the first of which is tilt/gambling rush kinda things but I seem to have a ton of trouble putting people on hands and end up paying people off so darn often. I play really laggy (33/25) but I think its kinda deceiving because I steal with pretty much any two cards if i think the blinds are multi table type nits.

Other things i like doing. I like min raising in early and middle pos. (please talk about this with me). I raise 5xbb usually in late pos with strong hands and steal with 2.5x bb(mixing it up with some strong hands). There are really only two types of players I see at this level. Super tags(11/10) who will only enter a pot with solid value hands who raise or fold, and rec players who limp/call 40% of hands. With a hands like AJ, A10, Kq, KJ, my min raise will get raised by supertags who prob have me dominated or called by one or two rec players who love playing their Ace-rag. Anyways, its easy to escape from the super tags and pot stays pretty small compared to stacks with the callers or thats my hope. If this is THE leak, then great, if not I've got a million other possibilities to talk about. I try to cbet ragged flops or bet for value with top pair good kicker hands because at this level middle pairs and long shot draws always seem to call. Also I buy in with 50bb as a sort of tilt breaker. If i tilt and burn through a couple buy ins, then I'm better off than if I did the same with full stacks. I figure it will also vary my game naturally as I start to play implied odds type hands if/when my stack swells.

This is kinda just venting but it happens every session and today was a prime example, same hand(almost) same opponent but one big loss and one smaller win(loss had slightly bigger stacks). So stacks are about 70bb he's got me covered. I have 1010 with a club on the button in one and middle pos in the other. One limper I raise to 18c(4.5xbb) get two callers no surprise. Flop is 7c3c2s the other is 8c5c4h. It checks to me, I raise 2/3 pot with gets raised about pot sized. A call will have me committed but it doesn't seem right to fold an over pair so I shove at them and get called by the raiser. One is a set of sevens the other is an A4. So... is this acutally a way ahead way behind situation? Which would mean that I should check or bet/fold, right? In both cases, I thought a premium pair would have raised preflop(but in micros is almost as likely for them to call and I get played by these big time). I also thought that an Ace rag will def call plus a lot of draws and and even some 87 top pairs that think i'm on a bluff. The things that beat me are suited over cards on a draw(coinflip ish), JJ, sets and a weird two pair that is unlikely to have called preflop but happens. I feel my equity is pretty good against these hands. Whats the play? Am I missing something?

Heres another thing. When I try to play smarter it just turns out to be more passive and my non-showdown winnings take a dive. Where the hell is that balance point? The situations I'm thinking of are the scary board type flops. When I'm aggressive I can take them down pretty often but when I wanna play smart I'll check them then get raised huge on the turn because I showed weakness I assume. What about calling what they seem to think are cbets on 3 low card flops?
 
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CaptainKout

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Btw I stumbled across a very un-tilting expression today. Somebody said, "You just keep hitting the top of their range today." Suddenly all those times I thought it was a really bad read i should have seen, i forgot about those small likelyhood hands in his range that crush me. I don't know why i didn't see it! (this is a huge victory for me i think) Obviously trips will play the same way as a boat(at micros) and with normal stacks all the money is probably going in if I've got a strong flush, because the nit that hit his trips doesn't wanna believe i have a flush and because I'll raise myself to the poor house against a boat especially if its some boat that came about in a weird way.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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play like a super tag, its a winning style.

and post the actually hand history, tl;dr..

then we can help out.
 
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***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Cake Poker)
$4.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, April 28, 12:38:35 ET 2012
Table Rome (6max) 15001 (real money)
Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: Hero ( $1.62 USD ) - VPIP: 28, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.4, Hands: 28402
Seat 2: Player2 ( $4.43 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 12, 3B: 0, AF: 0.6, Hands: 81
Seat 3: Player3 ( $5.68 USD ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 20, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 15
Seat 8: Player8 ( $3.74 USD ) - VPIP: 17, PFR: 10, 3B: 7, AF: 0.0, Hands: 60
Seat 9: Player9 ( $1.38 USD ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 12, 3B: 6, AF: 9.5, Hands: 268
Seat 10: Player10 ( $6.25 USD ) - VPIP: 39, PFR: 15, 3B: 3, AF: 3.0, Hands: 105
Player9 posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
Player10 posts big blind [$0.04 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Tc Th ]
Hero raises [$0.08 USD]
Player2 calls [$0.08 USD]
Player3 folds
Player8 folds
Player9 folds
Player10 calls [$0.04 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 5c, 4h ]
Player10 checks
Hero bets [$0.18 USD]
Player2 raises [$0.48 USD]
Player10 folds
Hero calls [$0.30 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
Hero checks
Player2 bets [$0.82 USD]
Hero raises [$1.06 USD]
Player2 calls [$0.24 USD]
Hero shows [Tc, Th ]
Player2 shows [Ac, 4c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9h ]
Hero wins $3.12 USD from main pot
 
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***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Cake Poker)
$4.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, April 28, 12:37:07 ET 2012
Table Rome (6max) 14993 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Hero ( $2.47 USD ) - VPIP: 28, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.4, Hands: 28402
Seat 2: Player2 ( $1.61 USD ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 12, 3B: 6, AF: 9.5, Hands: 268
Seat 3: Player3 ( $3.27 USD ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 9, 3B: 3, AF: 1.4, Hands: 217
Seat 8: Player8 ( $5.25 USD ) - VPIP: 41, PFR: 2, 3B: 6, AF: 1.2, Hands: 54
Seat 9: Player9 ( $4.03 USD ) - VPIP: 8, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 12
Seat 10: Player10 ( $2.83 USD ) - VPIP: 59, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 1.4, Hands: 29
Player3 posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
Player8 posts big blind [$0.04 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Td Tc ]
Player9 folds
Player10 calls [$0.04 USD]
Hero raises [$0.18 USD]
Player2 folds
Player3 calls [$0.16 USD]
Player8 calls [$0.14 USD]
Player10 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, 3d, 2c ]
Player3 checks
Player8 checks
Hero bets [$0.39 USD]
Player3 raises [$1.75 USD]
Player8 folds
Hero raises [$1.90 USD]
Player3 calls [$0.54 USD]
Hero shows [Td, Tc ]
Player3 shows [7s, 7h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
Player3 wins $4.82 USD from main pot
 
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CaptainKout

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Upon review, they aren't quite as similar as I thought but I actually think I played the losing hand more appropriately. Thanks for the help.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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both are pretty standard..

I hate this 2.5x for steals and 5x your strong hands though, you're supposed to be balanced dude.

4x UTG since you're range is stronger and people have to pay more to play againt you IP.

3x from MP to CO.

2.5x on the BTN since your range is so weak/wide and you can steal for a cheaper amount + when you get 3 bet you can call wider since its cheaper.

also.. BUY IN FOR 100BB.

there is no 'tilt breaker' if you would have lost more then that sucks but you win more when you win as a result.. buy in for full, thats all I think I have to say since its a mass of text.

gl.
 
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CaptainKout

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So first off, I'm buying in for 100bb. Haven't had a run in with my Tilty alter ego in a while. Second, raising bigger under the gun? I hear that all the time but I hate being in big pots oop and esp hate being dominated oop. I do get that smaller stack to pot ratio takes away positional advantage but I feel like I would have to quit playing the weaker broadways in order to do that. Also I like raising more with strong hands in position for the positional advantage i just mentioned. (and mostly because Chris Ferguson wrote an article about this<http://www.chrisferguson.com/tip/120/Pre-Flop+Raising+Strategy>)

Next, "play like a super tag." Ok i get it but I don't think it suits me(which is not what we're discussing). I feel like there is too much easy money to be had from blind stealing, etc(esp since i'm getting away with it so often with just a min raise) and my stats show it has been the only profitable part of my game. On the same note, redline vs blue line. My blue line sucks and is really swingy. I'm obv calling too much on turn and river which is something i need to watch, along with bluffing too much against people who will call any piece of the board. Stuff like C betting a K52 board then picking up a straight or flush draw on the turn which merits another bet and getting called for three streets by pocket fours or someone with A2. I don't think they're adjusting to me, just hoping that their bottom pair is good. And against those people supertag style is better but against supertagz I should do my laggy thing, right? esp since i can stack them when they hit a top pair or float and push them off if the river completes a flush, Note: this seems to be where a lot of the showdown loses come from(gotta work on bet sizing).
 
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Sorry, its an article by Phil Gordon i think.
 
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CaptainKout

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Heres another one. It didn't occur to me that this might be for tournaments its still worth a look i reckon.

<http://www.chrisferguson.com/tip?tip=20>
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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right, I'm going to explain in detail whats wrong with a fair bit of your theory (imo, others may disagree, using that poker is complex excuse)

but first I'm going to eat, beware of my next post

edit: I'm going to sleep instead, I'll do this tomorrow!
 
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JusSumguy

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Next, "play like a super tag." Ok i get it but I don't think it suits me

What you're really saying is that it's too boring to play that way.

Think about this now... First off, it's a phase. We all go through it. Poker is fun. Actually being in a hand, shuckin and jivin, is great fun. This is why we're drawn to poker in the first place. So what you've done is adapt your game to allow you to get in there and have more fun. That's what suits you. You didn't have a game and it turned out right. You develped a game which allows you maximum enjoyment.

If it were Parcheesi, you would be right on the mark. In poker, it's a loosing way to play. It's a proven fact. As much as I dislike math in poker, some numbers can't be ignored.

The winning way to win 6max is TAG. Creative, targeted loose aggression with a plan, and proper execution, is superior poker play. Making this a pattern, or playing that way without a specific plan, is very dangerous.

(which is not what we're discussing).
Yeah, kinda it is...


:icon_salu
 
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Ok. I promise I'm wholeheartedly absorbing what you have to say. I don't think I'm really playing laggy postflop, then again I might be since my showdown wins blow. I'm not taking any two cards into big pots but i am stealling with almost ATC. I think my stats look really loose preflop because I steal so often. What hands do you consider stealing hands on the button? small blind? Heres the stats(small sample tho) I'm stealing from BTN 59% of the time and have 58% success rate. Since i'm minraising most of the time its +EV isn't it? (This doesn't include the times I take it away on the flop when flat called) And I can call light on a 3bet since the pot is really small plus I like to min raise with suited AK,AQ,AJ so that I have a chance to four bet occasionally and being suited allows them to play better in high stack to pot situations. Against someone who's getting frisky 3betting me I can wait for a real hand to do the min raise thing in a couple of orbits. Obviously I haven't been running into much resistance tho, likely because everyone is playing their 10% range religulously on 12 tables at once. Anyways it has only happened a couple times that someone started 3betting a wide range and its usually after i take a big pot from them and then I 4 bet and showed down aces once and AKs the other and it was back to minraise city.

Where can I find the vpip/pfr by position in HM? Because if you take away the button shenanigans and small blind steals(58% attempt, 66%success so its +EV as well), I would guess I'm opening about 15% of hands. And rarely calling at all. I think thats TAG-ish. What about 3 betting w and w/o position? I probably 3 bet way too much for your liking (9%) which is pretty close to most supertag's opening range but a lot of these 3bets come from the blinds against a stealler(if thats the word). Also my calling range is really small in position and non existent oop.

In conclusion, i understand what youre saying and would love to talk about it more but I don't think we're really disagreeing except on steals.
 
Worak

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Playing LAG and being profitable is much much harder to do than playing TAG, especially when you - as you do - totally ignore position.

I'll give you a few hints what to look at.

  1. stop minraising from utg to mid pos
  2. get rid of 90% of your preflop utg/utg+1 range
  3. stop betting AK+/QQ+ x5
  4. run your range against villains perceived range and learn where you're at
  5. get a HUD and learn how to use it e.g. read the tendencies of opponents and act accordingly
  6. buy in max and auto max - always with no exeption
  7. look at the table constellation and seat yourself at the propper seat
  8. Recheck what hands in which position are profitable... when you have some volume.
  9. save the trashy hands for late position and bet them the same as you would your premiums
  10. get rid of the broadway junk
  11. find the fold button preflop and make close friends with it.
 
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CaptainKout

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Other thing, my only laggy post flop move is to come over the top of 80-100% cbettors in position and check raising occasionally on really scarry boards oop. Also Its been successful to check low card flops and throw out a raise on the turn if a high card shows up.
 
JusSumguy

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What hands do you consider stealing hands

Stealing is not about the cards. ATC's will do. Stealing is a targeted move against a specific mark. Or if an obvious buncha limpers do their limping thing around to you. Then you're targeting the whole table, but the play is sound with ATC. Big hands are just insurance in a move like that. Or maybe the table has folded to you and you figure the two short stacks behind you will fold to a 3bet. Big hands aren't stealing hands, they're winning hands.

In all those situations, and many more, the cards are of little issue.

-
 
Arjonius

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At micros, it's easier to become +EV playing TAG. Maybe you should consider learning to win first, before expanding your game to include more marginal situations, which is what happens as you loosen up your style.
 
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"Second, raising bigger under the gun? I hear that all the time but I hate being in big pots oop and esp hate being dominated oop."
I have to agree with Campbell92 about raising a lot in early position. I used to follow the small preflop raise [2x] when early because I didn't like to be out of position against opponents, but this really is detrimental. Think about it this way, if you are playing tighter, and are therefore playing better quality hands, you may be dominated in position, but your opponents are dominated by your starting hand. For instance, by playing tight you will most likely raise with a strong pocket pair or a big hand like AK, AQ, or maybe even KQs when under-the-gun. These other players who will be later will be calling with low suited connectors or even K9, A7, or some other variation. You have a large advantage over them. By raising a lot in early position you drive out the majority of these weaker hands making it far easier to place your opponent on a range.
Also, if playing tight is not your style, which is completely okay imo since winning poker is about finding a style that you find comfortable, really requires you to beef up your hand reading ability. I have read that a lot of players developed this skill by playing heads up, which forced them to play a lot of hands and narrow in on opponent's ranges. If you choose to play FR or 6max I do think you are kind of stuck because in order to win at these games a tag-style is the most profitable. You could try multi-tabling.
 
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This is the pm I received from OP yesterday... and since he asks a few questions by pm because he reached the posting limit I figured it would be ok to transfer this to a broader group in order to get better/more answers

PM:
CaptainKout
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Plays at: cake
Game: holdem
Posts: 13
Thanks for responding. I have more questions.
First and foremost I am open to incite. I'm going through a major study session of my hand histories and have an ever increasing list of questions and concerns. Also i used up my 7 posts but since you guys responded so quickly i thought I'd send a pm. Also it may sound like i'm defensive but i just think it will be easier to correct my thought process if you know how i'm thinking now.

Position Position position... I thought I understood position but I'm going to completely relearn everthing there is to know about it. The way I understood it, you want to play big pots in position and small pots if out of position. Big pots with big hands(sets or better) small pots with tptk type hands. The wishy washy part is when you can make small stack to pot ratios with tptk type hands. So obviously making a huge pot preflop with aces is good and getting committed on the flop with tptk is good against small stacks. Thats why i thought big raises on the button with my value hands were better than small ones even if it gets less calls. Also, its less costly to fold the best hand in a small pot than a big one.

Broadway junk... I don't want to play these in 3 bet pots, but in a min raised pot with a caller in the blinds or 2, my top pair top kicker is still probably good. If someone starts making big bets at me I can lay it down without it costing much, but there is still value to be had from draws that the callers with suited connectors are likely to be on. Even when it isn't good, the TAG's won't enter the pot without a raise and the sets and two pairs don't seem to bet enough to hurt me from the passive rec players.

save the trashy hands for late position and bet them the same as you would your premiums... this can't be right at the micros where I'm getting called down by bottom pair all day.

get rid of 90% of your preflop utg/utg+1 range.. easy enough. So what is playable? People have said I shouldn't even play AQ, suited or otherwise utg or utg+1. That seems excessively tight. So i tried to find a less costly way of playing it than the standard raise. Which could be bad but thats why I'm asking you guys.

get a HUD and learn how to use it e.g. read the tendencies of opponents and act accordingly..run your range against villains perceived range and learn where you're at..... I am which is why I think these hands become playable in certain situations. I found that stealing is profitable I also found that 5xbb raise on the button gets called by hands that would 3bet a 3xbb. The 5bb gets me a smaller stack to pot ratio when called and A10s-Aq, JJ-99 become calling hands or folds for most micro players in the blinds which puts me way ahead of their range with premium hands and comfortably ahead with AJ, JJ and maybe 10's when you mix in some silly small pairs and suited aces etc.

look at the table constellation and seat yourself at the propper seat.... Can't get on a big site so I've got like 4 tables to choose from and they all have the same 4-6 players. Can't even move to merge network because I moved to washington so I can only play off the remainder of bankroll on cake. But I'm told there is nothing more important than playing with bad players. If you get good enough everyones a bad player so thats what I'm going for. (kinda a joke)

So last things. Are you suggesting the 11/10 style purely to avoid tough decisions, so that you can multitable easily? That def makes sense for a newb like me, avoiding tough decisions that is. I posted a couple hands and everyone basically responded "fold pre to avoid tough decision." I don't think I'm playing that loose, but the 11/10 seems way more exploitable than even the the rec players silly bottom pair calls. I'm losing showdowns to the calling stations(which means stop betting, I know) and getting out of the way of 11/10 guys without solid value. Maybe I'm just seeing the worst of the 11/10 guys at 4nl but they never seem to adjust.

Thanks for the help.

I going to reply to this latter when I'm finished with my league game.
 
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CaptainKout

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Awesome response time everyone. Its appreciated.

It might not matter because people at 4nl are such poo, but raising big when you can't stand up to a raise seems like a bad play. I see it all the time that people proudly show that they layed down AQs after getting three bet but that just screams raise me since the majority of their starting hands will fold to a raise. And if I have a monster it becomes an easy slow play because their range is so polarized and except for a couple sets mixed in, pocket aces are an almost guaranteed stack winner if they hit their hand.

So i guess I have a tough time embracing the 11/10 thing because I don't play pots with them. I played 500 hands today at 18/15 and ran really freakin good(like 6 bucks below all in ev but still in profit). I ended up three betting really light from the blinds because there was a maniac on the button all session. I'll get back on the forum after I have some more hands to talk about. No tricky spots today tho which is kinda the TAG mantra, right.
 
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In case anyone cares, I took all your advice to heart and have been on the best winning streak of my life. I moved all my silly hands to co and btn. Picking my spots better and for the first time my biggest weakness seems to be reverse tilt or whatever its called when I get overly confident. Also, I scaled back my cbets from 2/3 pot to 1/2 pot and don't see any dif in response. Seems most people are playing fit or fold post flop which seems about right at 4nl.

Questions:
How do I play small and mid pocket pairs from early pos? I'm raising 5bb from utg with my premium hands but I want to get these other pocket pairs involved more. If I raise 5bb and get called, I'm the aggressor so I'll lead out on most flops but this puts me in a weird spot if they call. Is it a one and done kinda thing? What about Kings oop when an A flops(figure its similar to the small pairs situation)? I've been leading at it hoping to make the pocket pairs that called pre to fold or maybe a weakish Ace.

What hands do you recommend 3betting from the blinds? What about calling in the blinds if my hand has some value against their stealing range but not against their 3bet calling range (you'll probably say fold)? 3bet sizing from blinds? 3 betting in position to an early raiser?

What kind of hands will you call a 3 bet when stealing from btn? Since I'm stealling so often it doesn't take long before someone gets upset. I know theyre 3 betting pretty light but their 3 bets are always huge so I've been folding all but the best.

Standard deviation, whats typical? The only article I found said between 35 and 50bb per 100. Mine is at 9! but i'm not entirely sure that its per 100 when displayed in HM on the main reports screen.

Should I move any further questions to a new thread?
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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i'll do it, but that is a mountain of words.

cliffs please?
 
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cliff notes:
Please discuss
-Pocket pairs oop with overcards
-3betting from the blinds or call when I have value against most of their stealling range
-3betting in position
-calling 3bets (or 4betting) when i'm stealling
-Standard deviation stats in HM. What is typical?
 
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