Help to become an aggro

jaymfc · Feb 16, 2017

I hate aggros (there play not them) and think of them as donkeys most of the time, but for sure many of them do very well and all of them beat my tight butt up. I can't beat them so I need to join them. where do I start?

karl coakley · Feb 16, 2017

The place to begin is to understand the math. In just about any hand you are at least 60/40. This is tough for a lot of players to grasp. If you have AK I can call with almost any 2 cards and I'm going to win 4 out of 10 times. That sounds pretty bad until we reduce that fraction down to 2 out of 5 hands I'm going to win with any trash I want to call with. Even when people think you are "crushed" pair over pair, I'm going to win 20% or 1 out of 5 hands.

Most of the time, you are never a big dog pre-flop. This is a good time to get aggressive. You can raise and re-raise with a wide range. Of course we are talking generally. If you are playing micro when you re-raise a high percentage of the time the villain will simply shove. I play tight and if you re-raise me we are going to play for all our chips. The general idea is that a 3-4x re-raise will take down a lot of pots pre-flop.

The second thing to start with is put in more c-bets of 3/4 the pot. When a villain misses, its a tough bet to call. The problem is that this has become standard and you will get a lot of calls with over cards.

The third thing to work on is firing a 2nd barrel. After you c-bet and get called, the thing I see most often is a check. This is horrible poker. You need to bet the turn. If your c-bet doesn't take down the pot, a second barrel will a lot.

Betting = aggression.

Putting out a c-bet and 2nd barrel is a lot easier when you are playing tight. If you are getting "run over" playing tight, that is a different aggression problem. You need to re-raise the flop. If I call your raise with A10s and flop a flush draw, I should be re-raising the c-bet. If I call your raise and flop top pair with top kicker, re-raise the c-bet. If you are raising too many hands, I may just re-raise your c-bet because I'm tired of you. Its actually getting rare to see a re-raise on the flop for some reason. What this does many times (other than take down the pot) is give you free cards and lets you take control of the pot. Usually the villain will check the turn because he's no longer sure where he's at after calling a re-raise. It also opens the door for a bluff.

Less checking and calling, more betting = more aggressive.

Personally, I think a lot of people are over-aggressive betting with absolutely nothing. There is a balance. If you are too aggressive you can easily win small pots but lose big ones. Pick your spots.

cj2327 · Feb 16, 2017

A lot of times super aggressive players will raise and reraise with air, hoping to pick up the pot right there. If you can identify that a player is doing this, a light 3-bet will pick you up a nice pot. If you hit a big hand against them one way to make a nice profit is to let them "hang themselves" by just flat calling them to the river before you show any aggression yourself.

niphon56 · Feb 16, 2017

Hi, Jaymfc
I remember that you said you were not bluff often, it's mean you give up some chance of bad beat.
Some players all-in with bad hand, slow play with good hand, it's risky to fight with them, but it's skill of poker to distinguish which hand is bluff.
GL.

PKRNRS · Feb 16, 2017

Good hand to bluff with? AA

jaymfc · Feb 18, 2017

thank you for the suggestions kind sirs

karl coakley said:
The place to begin is to understand the math. In just about any hand you are at least 60/40. This is tough for a lot of players to grasp. If you have AK I can call with almost any 2 cards and I'm going to win 4 out of 10 times. That sounds pretty bad until we reduce that fraction down to 2 out of 5 hands I'm going to win with any trash I want to call with. Even when people think you are "crushed" pair over pair, I'm going to win 20% or 1 out of 5 hands.

Most of the time, you are never a big dog pre-flop. This is a good time to get aggressive. You can raise and re-raise with a wide range. Of course we are talking generally. If you are playing micro when you re-raise a high percentage of the time the villain will simply shove. I play tight and if you re-raise me we are going to play for all our chips. The general idea is that a 3-4x re-raise will take down a lot of pots pre-flop.

The second thing to start with is put in more c-bets of 3/4 the pot. When a villain misses, its a tough bet to call. The problem is that this has become standard and you will get a lot of calls with over cards.

The third thing to work on is firing a 2nd barrel. After you c-bet and get called, the thing I see most often is a check. This is horrible poker. You need to bet the turn. If your c-bet doesn't take down the pot, a second barrel will a lot.

Betting = aggression.

Putting out a c-bet and 2nd barrel is a lot easier when you are playing tight. If you are getting "run over" playing tight, that is a different aggression problem. You need to re-raise the flop. If I call your raise with A10s and flop a flush draw, I should be re-raising the c-bet. If I call your raise and flop top pair with top kicker, re-raise the c-bet. If you are raising too many hands, I may just re-raise your c-bet because I'm tired of you. Its actually getting rare to see a re-raise on the flop for some reason. What this does many times (other than take down the pot) is give you free cards and lets you take control of the pot. Usually the villain will check the turn because he's no longer sure where he's at after calling a re-raise. It also opens the door for a bluff.

Less checking and calling, more betting = more aggressive.

Personally, I think a lot of people are over-aggressive betting with absolutely nothing. There is a balance. If you are too aggressive you can easily win small pots but lose big ones. Pick your spots.

thank you, I do most of that but pre flop is one area where I need to be more aggressive, I will raise with many hands but
fold to big 4bet. I do c-bet when I'm the raiser and will fire a second bullet unless my hand is strong then I ck and hope they sense weakness and try to steal. I usually c-bet half the pot but may now bump it up.
I think most people are betting to force others out and I am usually trying to build a pot. I will read your advice a few times and incorporate much of it. thanks

ps.. where I get beat up is usually in the blinds, and when I defend whether I hit or not they make such large bets
I tend to fold. also true in other positions, a very large bet and I usually fold and most know that.

cj2327 said:
A lot of times super aggressive players will raise and reraise with air, hoping to pick up the pot right there. If you can identify that a player is doing this, a light 3-bet will pick you up a nice pot. If you hit a big hand against them one way to make a nice profit is to let them "hang themselves" by just flat calling them to the river before you show any aggression yourself.

I do see very many trying this but most times if I re-raise them they just
go all in, willing to risk everything with trash. letting the aggro's hang themselves is my main way to make a stack . appreciate the help

niphon56 said:
Hi, Jaymfc
I remember that you said you were not bluff often, it's mean you give up some chance of bad beat.
Some players all-in with bad hand, slow play with good hand, it's risky to fight with them, but it's skill of poker to distinguish which hand is bluff.
GL.

well I do bluff when I think it's believable, like on the river but I keep it to a minimum. always nice to hear from you sir

karl coakley · Feb 18, 2017

jaymfc said:
thank you for the suggestions kind sirs

ps.. where I get beat up is usually in the blinds, and when I defend whether I hit or not they make such large bets I tend to fold. also true in other positions, a very large bet and I usually fold and most know that.

If you are really running into problems with hyper-aggressive villains the most effective way to deal with them is not play their game. The most effective line as I posted above is to play "big pot" poker. I would look for hands to play for stacks. I would call raises with pairs with the intent of hitting a set. When I have AK or large pairs (JJ-AA) I would raise and shove to any re-raise. I would stay away from hands that get you into trouble like KJ and KQ and certainly not defend blinds. This type of play kills aggression. After a few orbits you will certainly see the aggression slow down. You are going to see your raises called rather than re-raised and smaller raises because there is a very real chance you are going to shove negating their aggression and post flop play. Once you establish this style, slowly open up your range to your normal game. I would also recommend you do not buy in for the table max but less because you are certainly going to be in some coin flips, which is what you really want. If you lose a flip, rebuy and continue on.

57noona · Mar 24, 2020

I wish I could give you something to use, but I'm not proud of my game so far. I need to tweak some things here and there. The only advice I can give you is to try and play your opponents hand instead of your own. If you know that they bet big with big pockets avoid playing their big bets and play their weak bets back at them. If you feel a flop missed your opponent try betting into them to try and take a pot. I'm not afraid to make mistakes playing poker. You need to get rid of the fear factor in poker. Lots of players will think your a donk when you are caught betting with third pair in the board. Remember who is at your table and show them the goods the next time they call your bets.

DixonHuenow · Mar 24, 2020

You can raise any two cards from the button. A lot of it is telling a story with your bet sizing, and putting your opponents on a range based on their bet size.

chattydb4567 · Mar 24, 2020

Right method

Being aggressive is the only way just gotta have some good post flop decisions

flanylpant · Mar 24, 2020

Just gotta stick it in against them with a wider range of hands

jaymfc · Mar 30, 2020

thanks guys

its 3 years later but still struggling lol

zinzir · Mar 30, 2020

jaymfc said:
thanks guys its 3 years later but still struggling lol

Thanks to nabmom you'll struggle some more

Congrats on your 4th place in yesterday's $3.30 buy-in tourney!

jaymfc · Mar 31, 2020

zinzir said:
Thanks to nabmom you'll struggle some more

Congrats on your 4th place in yesterday's $3.30 buy-in tourney!

lol

I just have trouble doing half of the crazy shit they say do even though I realize they know better than me
so no worries on losing the master class

I will get thru and hopefully not struggle as much as lately. I'm claiming variance

your 1st place on the leaderboard was compromised as of yesterday's game so wish you luck in today's final game of 1st quarter.

thanks that's a tough tourney congrats on a very nice finish yourself

ps... my main point was that this thread was started three years ago and died 3 years ago

Igor Popadyk · Mar 31, 2020

you need to realize that poker is not only a game of skill but also psychology, work on yourself

zinzir · Mar 31, 2020

jaymfc said:
lol
I just have trouble doing half of the crazy shit they say do even though I realize they know better than me
so no worries on losing the master class
I will get thru and hopefully not struggle as much as lately. I'm claiming variance
your 1st place on the leaderboard was compromised as of yesterday's game so wish you luck in today's final game of 1st quarter.

thanks that's a tough tourney congrats on a very nice finish yourself

ps... my main point was that this thread was started three years ago and died 3 years ago

I never said you needed the master class, it was your idea to study it and become an aggro, remember?

You are right, this thread died 3 years ago, but now it's resurrected, so let's sit back and enjoy it to the fullest, as in my opinion the situation is nothing short of another Festivus miracle

Thank you for the kind words about my place on the leaderboard but I don't think I ever held 1st place, my best position was 4th place, now it's 6th place. You might be taking me for someone else.
PS: Even 6th place is way too high for my skill level and I'm sure is just a lucky fluke, but I'm still proud of it

jaymfc · Apr 1, 2020

zinzir said:
I never said you needed the master class, it was your idea to study it and become an aggro, remember?

You are right, this thread died 3 years ago, but now it's resurrected, so let's sit back and enjoy it to the fullest, as in my opinion the situation is nothing short of another Festivus miracle

Thank you for the kind words about my place on the leaderboard but I don't think I ever held 1st place, my best position was 4th place, now it's 6th place. You might be taking me for someone else.
PS: Even 6th place is way too high for my skill level and I'm sure is just a lucky fluke, but I'm still proud of it

you said I will struggle even more now that I didn't get it

but no biggie either way

don't know where you been watching leaderboard but I keep a close eye on it and you def been on top for a while. but after tonight's final game I do believe you are the 1st quarter points winner for $30 and a trophy in your accolades. it takes them a while to get all the late numbers in but they will announce the winners in a week or so. early congrats sir

Ktv2018 · Apr 1, 2020

karl coakley said:
If you are really running into problems with hyper-aggressive villains the most effective way to deal with them is not play their game. The most effective line as I posted above is to play "big pot" poker. I would look for hands to play for stacks. I would call raises with pairs with the intent of hitting a set. When I have AK or large pairs (JJ-AA) I would raise and shove to any re-raise. I would stay away from hands that get you into trouble like KJ and KQ and certainly not defend blinds. This type of play kills aggression. After a few orbits you will certainly see the aggression slow down. You are going to see your raises called rather than re-raised and smaller raises because there is a very real chance you are going to shove negating their aggression and post flop play. Once you establish this style, slowly open up your range to your normal game. I would also recommend you do not buy in for the table max but less because you are certainly going to be in some coin flips, which is what you really want. If you lose a flip, rebuy and continue on.

I usually make my on game regardless of some type of aggressive players, if you let them be they will stop eventually because they will not have action at the table. Also they are a good type of player to make you chips from usually when they go loose canon with nothing.

ramignis · Apr 1, 2020

start with the fact that 3 bet only with a good over pair on the flop. with speculative hands up to AK go call or limp. depending on what actions were taken before you.

zinzir · Apr 1, 2020

jaymfc said:
you said I will struggle even more now that I didn't get it but no biggie either way

That was just a joke about nabmom winning the master class, I never thought you actually struggled, quite the opposite, I think you are playing at a level I'll never be able to achieve.

don't know where you been watching leaderboard but I keep a close eye on it and you def been on top for a while. but after tonight's final game I do believe you are the 1st quarter points winner for $30 and a trophy in your accolades. it takes them a while to get all the late numbers in but they will announce the winners in a week or so. early congrats sir

You are right, I knew nothing about points, all I was doing was look at the money leaderboard. I had seen before a couple of posts mentioning points, but I did not look into it assuming I had no chance to compete on placement points against the CC giants (like you, for example).
Now, after some research on the forum, I know how to look at the points LB and understand how the points are awarded. As we speak, I am on top with 266 points, but like you said, it takes a while to get all the numbers, and things will probably change since the difference in points between the top places is razor-thin.
I wish I new more about it earlier, because I missed a few games lately, oblivious to the points LB competition, but on the other hand I played with no pressure (as they say, ignorance is bliss).
Anyways, if I end up winning the first quarter, I am convinced it will be due to yet again another FESTIVUS miracle

Speaking of FESTIVUS, did you give playing in the upcoming spring league a thought? It will be my first league as captain, and if you signed up you would be my first pick. It would be a great pleasure and honor to have you on board of team FESTIVUS "a magical place of positivity and good vibes".
Besides, with the corona situation probably lasting for a while, an extra tourney every week might be a good thing

The deadline for applying is today, april 1st at midnight ET, and the link is below in case you decide to join:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/car...-sign-up-451689/?highlight=spring+league+2020

jaymfc · Apr 1, 2020

zinzir said:
You are right, I knew nothing about points, all I was doing was look at the money leaderboard. I had seen before a couple of posts mentioning points, but I did not look into it assuming I had no chance to compete on placement points against the CC giants (like you, for example).
Now, after some research on the forum, I know how to look at the points LB and understand how the points are awarded. As we speak, I am on top with 266 points, but like you said, it takes a while to get all the numbers, and things will probably change since the difference in points between the top places is razor-thin.
I wish I new more about it earlier, because I missed a few games lately, oblivious to the points LB competition, but on the other hand I played with no pressure (as they say, ignorance is bliss).
Anyways, if I end up winning the first quarter, I am convinced it will be due to yet again another FESTIVUS miracle

Speaking of FESTIVUS, did you give playing in the upcoming spring league a thought? It will be my first league as captain, and if you signed up you would be my first pick. It would be a great pleasure and honor to have you on board of team FESTIVUS "a magical place of positivity and good vibes".
Besides, with the corona situation probably lasting for a while, an extra tourney every week might be a good thing
The deadline for applying is today, april 1st at midnight ET, and the link is below in case you decide to join:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/car...-sign-up-451689/?highlight=spring+league+2020

really did think about it

but no thanks, great offer, it would be an honor to be on your team if I did. thanks again for all the kind words

see you on the leaderboard

zinzir · Apr 1, 2020

jaymfc said:
really did think about it but no thanks, great offer, it would be an honor to be on your team if I did. thanks again for all the kind words
see you on the leaderboard

No problem, thank you for considering it. See you on top of the leaderboard, where you belong!

LedZeffelin · Apr 1, 2020

karl coakley said:
The place to begin is to understand the math. In just about any hand you are at least 60/40. This is tough for a lot of players to grasp. If you have AK I can call with almost any 2 cards and I'm going to win 4 out of 10 times. That sounds pretty bad until we reduce that fraction down to 2 out of 5 hands I'm going to win with any trash I want to call with. Even when people think you are "crushed" pair over pair, I'm going to win 20% or 1 out of 5 hands.

Most of the time, you are never a big dog pre-flop. This is a good time to get aggressive. You can raise and re-raise with a wide range. Of course we are talking generally. If you are playing micro when you re-raise a high percentage of the time the villain will simply shove. I play tight and if you re-raise me we are going to play for all our chips. The general idea is that a 3-4x re-raise will take down a lot of pots pre-flop.

The second thing to start with is put in more c-bets of 3/4 the pot. When a villain misses, its a tough bet to call. The problem is that this has become standard and you will get a lot of calls with over cards.

The third thing to work on is firing a 2nd barrel. After you c-bet and get called, the thing I see most often is a check. This is horrible poker. You need to bet the turn. If your c-bet doesn't take down the pot, a second barrel will a lot.

Betting = aggression.

Putting out a c-bet and 2nd barrel is a lot easier when you are playing tight. If you are getting "run over" playing tight, that is a different aggression problem. You need to re-raise the flop. If I call your raise with A10s and flop a flush draw, I should be re-raising the c-bet. If I call your raise and flop top pair with top kicker, re-raise the c-bet. If you are raising too many hands, I may just re-raise your c-bet because I'm tired of you. Its actually getting rare to see a re-raise on the flop for some reason. What this does many times (other than take down the pot) is give you free cards and lets you take control of the pot. Usually the villain will check the turn because he's no longer sure where he's at after calling a re-raise. It also opens the door for a bluff.

Less checking and calling, more betting = more aggressive.

Personally, I think a lot of people are over-aggressive betting with absolutely nothing. There is a balance. If you are too aggressive you can easily win small pots but lose big ones. Pick your spots.

This is aggro thoughtful Karl!! Very proud of the time you put in to lay this out for the community.

thetick33 · Apr 1, 2020

jaymfc said:
I hate aggros (there play not them) and think of them as donkeys most of the time, but for sure many of them do very well and all of them beat my tight butt up. I can't beat them so I need to join them. where do I start?

again is a lot of different ways to view this... you know they are aggro is this cash table or mtt? can you rebuy etc.. what are you willing to risk etc...

so you have to know your opponent and know if they truly aggro these are maybe not the best way for you to make your buck depending on what setting you face them..

one thing is this betting patterns study your opponents betting get a hud.... so how often they raise preflop to how often they bet flop turn etc.... a lot of times online making moves on an aggro player is simple but it takes foresite...

you make decision ok whatever flops im gonna raise them back immediately exactly what they bet into the flop on their auto continuation bet... if you do it super fast and they missed they will honestly often back down even fold..... if they just dont care are drunk watever you can get murdered...

is honestly a lot of easier players to take down then someone wide open.... and usually when it gets tight 27 left??? those aggro might win here and there but more often they get killed off before the real money....

my thing is person position their range action to your move and then your cards...

so aggro is something i know i probably dont have to deal with myself... and id honestly play a set up trap method most times myself to catch them with the nutts where on river i finally shove etc.. after letting them just pay me off to that point

moshie · May 21, 2020

I like to pick my spots too. Only want to play back with big Hands JJ+ AK AQ suited+ I want to be a big favorite against one aggro player and stack him if I have him dominated. I want to get it in at least 57% favorite pre flop. After flop I will see How much I will commit the rest of my stack.

Help to become an aggro

jaymfc

R.I.P DJ & Buck

karl coakley

Visionary

cj2327

Enthusiast

niphon56

Legend

PKRNRS

Visionary

jaymfc

R.I.P DJ & Buck

karl coakley

Visionary

57noona

Legend

DixonHuenow

Enthusiast

chattydb4567

Rock Star

flanylpant

Enthusiast

jaymfc

R.I.P DJ & Buck

zinzir

Legend

jaymfc

R.I.P DJ & Buck

Igor Popadyk

Legend

zinzir

Legend

jaymfc

R.I.P DJ & Buck

Ktv2018

Enthusiast

ramignis

Rock Star

zinzir

Legend

jaymfc

R.I.P DJ & Buck

zinzir

Legend

LedZeffelin

Rock Star

thetick33

Legend

moshie

Rock Star

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