Hand-Range Concealment

Ezekiel162

Ezekiel162

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I've had the opportunity to go up against some opponents that would make 2-3BB bets on an almost consistent basis pre-flop and would never show their cards unless there was a showdown only to find out that most of time I was going up against like TPTKs. It was incredibly baffling to deal with because I couldn't put the opponent on a steady hand-range. Furthermore, they were playing almost every hand post-f for 1/2 to 2/3 pot(Assume that they had enough chips to make these kind of plays) so they were able to steal quite a few blinds at the table because players remembered those TPTKs. Since then I've incorporated this particular style when I "switch gears" to setup opponents as well.
Are there any good defenses against this kind of a play and are there any other methods that players use to hide the strength of their hands? :confused:
 
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KCcheckraise

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Sounds like they were just a chip bully that happened to hit big when someone else did and won. I wouldn't know how to play against them except to fold until you get a dominant hand and then don't raise but call so your opponent thinks you can be bluffed out and will keep feeding you chips all hand. After a few of those they will probably switch gears/be more cautious.
 
absoluthamm

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If I'm reading your post right, this is what you would call a Maniac. If they were truly raising 50+% of hands regardless of position and always C-betting.

There are two things you can do with these types of players, and it all depends on how cautious you are.

First, you can wait for your premium hand and be extremely aggressive with it raise and reraising if needed(some Maniacs will back down to aggression, if this is the case, you may want to make some calls so they will keep betting, but beware, this gives them some opportunity to hit something).

Second, you can throw in some marginal hands when you have position on them like T9s or 55 and proceed the same way as above when you hit. You hand will be fairly concealed when you hit these so hit might not see danger.


However, if you look a little harder and your opponent is rather just making these raises while in late position, this is nothing out of the ordinary and he/she is playing correct poker.
 
bgomez89

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Not sure how I got this but:

Maniacs:

Want them on our direct right

DO:

Slowplay big hands when faced with aggression(c/r over pairs in 3bet pots)
Value Bet two streets when he might be on a draw and c/c rivers
Take lines which induce bluffs by appearing weak
Got to showdown light but use pot control whenever you can

Dont:

Fold TPTK or overpairs
Tilt
Try to bluff
Cbet 3bet pots with air
3bet light OOP
 
Ezekiel162

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Who normally C-bets 3Bets with…? LOL. Good point ‘SumGuy… All in fun everyone.

Didn't mean to leave my own thread hanging. Couldn't post for a day or so because of the 7/24 post thing...

These are some good counter-tactics. (Aside from I guess I could attempt more re-steals/floats and set-mine as well but on Carbon I get overly worried about the last streets because opponents seem to get exactly what they need if they are allowed to progress that far. It's affected my aggression lately by making me more passive (which we know isn't neccessarily good).

I may have failed to mention that when I attempt to challenge this particular player with fairly strong hands they shove. So I end up like ???, re-evaluate my hands and start to worry about the few combinations that can beat me (normally with fairly tight hands that should hold up in these situations), but, not wanting to commit all my chips to someone with like 2x my stack already, I end up "pushing the punk button" & fold. When I do get tired of this and take a chance, THAT'S, when he holding my coolers.

Is this type of player just reading/playing ME instead of the cards? If so, should I only be pushing AA,KK,AK against as insurance against this opponent or scrutinizing the leaks in my game? If so, suggestions?
 
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bgomez89

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No this player is just a maniac, going crazy and betting for fun.

Also what do you mean

ezekiel162 said:
Who normally C-bets 3Bets with…? LOL
Uh, cbetting flops in a 3bet pot is pretty standard...
 
Ezekiel162

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With air against the type of player described though?
 
bgomez89

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Idk depends on the person but I wouldn't. I thought you meant in general
 
Ezekiel162

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I guess I'm just saying it's hard against this kind of player because:

They're placing consistent standard bets/reraises pf, they're either calling consistent re-raises post-f or standard re-raising 2/3 - potsize, and when challenged shoving so that they almost always force a showdown. If, for say, they were betting let's say on a 10/20 game 60 on 89s and 180 chips on AKo/s then I'd have some sort of indication but because of their chip lead they can afford to make these kind of plays. What kind of indicator could I use to see if/when they are bluffing to avoid great risk or getting KO'd? Or, maybe they're doing this specifically with me because of my past folds?
 
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1. Find a different game
2. Play in position against this player.
-- A. 3-bet a wider value range
-- B. Call down/stack off lighter
 
Ezekiel162

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I took the points listed on this thread and things are going better now. Thank you everyone. It put me out of my comfort zone for a little bit and then I realized it was another method of hand concealment that I hadn't tried in awhile - switching gears. I guess that I've been playing to tight lately to avoid suckouts and bad beats. Since I originally started the thread to discuss different methods (and counter-moves) of hand concealment, what are some thoughts on appropriate times/situations to switch gears? Anyone...?
 
Ezekiel162

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Been hearing alot about Hand Polarization and I've had to do some looking around and still can't exactly define how it helps or hinders a player. But it does seem like it could be another possible method of Hand-Range Concealment... As a trap probably. Unsure...

Could someone please clarify what it is exactly & how it's used (layman's terms possibly or examples because the stuff I've read has confused me...)? Since coming to CC I've been trying to pick up on all the technical stuff I've been missing out on.
 
bgomez89

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Polarizing your hand means you either have a really good one or a bluff. Depolarized hands are a merged value type range so like QJ/qt/JT/kj/kq plus all the awesome ones
 
Ezekiel162

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Oh... Still a little confusing because some of the articles I read were talking about some people betting big on strong hands and smaller on weak hands and they kept referring to a "polarized hand/range". So i figured if a person was placing more consistent bets they could screen their range more... Idk... I'm still confused... Whether they relate to "polarization" or not I still need to figure this thing out. I'm about to google up "range merging" now. I'll get back. Thanx...
 
JOEBOB69

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Polarizing your range is just what BG said.
On a side note if you goggle range merging you will prob come across "triple range merging" on 2+2.Please don't read it or give it any thought.It was a inside joke that got carried away.
 
bgomez89

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Don't worry about range merging. It's not worth it at your stakes.
 
Ezekiel162

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Polarizing your range is just what BG said.
Polarizing your hand means you either have a really good one or a bluff. Depolarized hands are a merged value type range so like QJ/qt/JT/kj/kq plus all the awesome ones

Thanks for this statement... You stated it so simple, it's eloquent...

Don't worry about range merging. It's not worth it at your stakes.

From all the articles and research I've done from my last post you're absolutely correct. The inexperienced players at lower levels wouldn't understand the intricacies of what's being used against them. Still, it's a very interesting concept though... I did find out that I've been playing with a somewhat unbalanced polarized hand range. Enough where a fairly observant opponent can predict it. I'm going to experiment more with adding bluffs, bluff catchers and merged ranges just for further hand-range concealment practice...
 
JOEBOB69

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Are you mostly a cash player or a mtt or sng player ummmm Mr. Baaaaawssston
 
Ezekiel162

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LOL... aiight point taken...

SNGs mainly. Tried low-limits after getting a VERY minor BR playing SNGs Carbon Fun Steps. Didn't work out to well because I don't think the size of my former BR could handle the variance... Looking forward to eventually trying the CC freerolls when I get more posts in... It might give me more of a bankroll to play with.
 
JOEBOB69

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Mtt's,freerolls,sng's are for losers and tyler btw.(well they are one in the same)
 
Ezekiel162

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Well I'll be honest. I'm not feeling the freerolls and MTTs much but the SNGs have always seemed to have been my forte. Well the STTs anyway...
 
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