Getting up speed on poker with strong math and game-theoretic background

Hi all,

I have a series of somewhat broad questions, that all relate to each other and affect each other. I've just decided to pick up poker in my spare time. I know the hand rankings, rough starting hand selection, and that position matters. Beyond that, I do not know much. I've been reading an online guide, which taught me the things I just mentioned, but I'm missing somewhat more concreteness.

My background is very strong in math, probability, and game theory. Ideally I would like to find a good introduction to poker play that does not shy away from math and probability. I'm guessing that I should probably be searching for books rather than online content. So:

1. What would be good introductory reading for someone with a strong math background?

I also realize that some actual playing will be equally, if not more, important. I'm currently on a budget, and so I really want to break even immediately. I care a lot more about not losing money than I do winning money as of now. With that in mind, one option is of course to just play freerolls, and use winnings from there (if I get any) to play other games. Now, my issue is that cash games seem more approachable in terms of learning the ropes initially, and so I'm worried that playing freerolls might not be the best way to go. They might also teach me little, since I would expect the quality of players on freerolls to be much worse than at cash tables. So:

2. Do you guys think that freerolls + SnG 4-man tournaments (through potential winnings) would be a good starting point?
3. Or do I need to play cash tables, e.g. 0.02/0.04NL tables?

Thanks for your input!


Edit: I should mention that I prefer limit holdem or NL holdem. I would go with limit, but it seems dead on Carbon (I'm in the US), so I guess I'm trying my hand at NL.

Through another thread I found the MIT poker class lectures:
http://web.mit.edu/willma/www/2013mit15s50.html

These seem like a good first option, since there does not seem to be any recommendations for good books. My plan is now to watch these lectures, while playing freerolls in the meantime.

I'm currently debating whether to just use PokerStove, or invest in/start the trial for PokerTracker. Any opinions on this? Once I am eligible for CardsChat freerolls, will using PokerTracker make a huge difference, or do people think that PokerStove is sufficient, if one can do the math properly?

I'd certainly suggest using hem2 or pt4. The problem is you're saying you need to not give up money and play freerolls instead is depositing, but the software will cost you.

If you're playing smaller stakes anyway like $5 or $10nl you could probably get away without using software.

Can't help you with math related poker books. Personally I don't think the math is really that necessary. However there definitely are plenty of guys on the forums that are deep into that stuff if you look around

Mase31683 said:

I'd certainly suggest using hem2 or pt4. The problem is you're saying you need to not give up money and play freerolls instead is depositing, but the software will cost you.

If you're playing smaller stakes anyway like $5 or $10nl you could probably get away without using software.

Can't help you with math related poker books. Personally I don't think the math is really that necessary. However there definitely are plenty of guys on the forums that are deep into that stuff if you look around

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I'm more okay with spending $100 on the poker software, since that's a one-time cost, and then playing freerolls from there. My worry is that I'll suck for a while, and thus do not want to start playing cash tables until I have some reasonable confidence in my skill level, as I have no idea what my cash investment would be before reaching a reasonable level of competence.

As for math books, and math usage more generally, it's okay if it's not necessary, I still want to learn it for personal enjoyment. My main motivation for getting into poker in the first place is that I really enjoy optimization (as a thing in life and as a mathematical/algorithmic topic), and I want to apply it to poker as a sort of challenge/fun hobby

basse said:

As for math books, and math usage more generally, it's okay if it's not necessary, I still want to learn it for personal enjoyment. My main motivation for getting into poker in the first place is that I really enjoy optimization (as a thing in life and as a mathematical/algorithmic topic), and I want to apply it to poker as a sort of challenge/fun hobby

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Alright then:

Matthew Janda - "Applications of No-Limit Holdem"
Will Tipton - "Expert Heads Up No Limit Holdem: Optimal and Exploitative Strategies"
Will Tipton - "Expert Heads Up No Limit Holdem: Strategies for Multiple Streets"
Thomas Bakker - "Analytical No-Limit Holdem: Crushing mid-stakes short handed games" (not that "mathematical" but presents a range oriented thinking)
Bill Chen - "The Mathematics of Poker" (if you feel the need )

On top of that, there are some coaching sites that offer various theory based series (I think Cardrunners is probably the most math/theory packed; DeucesCracked also has some good content). Beside trackers, they also use additional (paid) software such as CardrunnersEV, Flopzilla, ProPokerTools to build strategies, construct ranges etc.

You say you're on a budget. But are you really? Or is this really a way of saying you're afraid to lose?

If you're really budgeting, then budget for an amount you can lose easily enough so it won't eat at you. In my case, I started by giving myself a BR of $150. This was a one-time amount that I was never going to add to, but if you prefer, you can budget $X per week, $Y per month or some combo like $A to begin plus $B per week or month.

Arjonius said:

You say you're on a budget. But are you really? Or is this really a way of saying you're afraid to lose?

If you're really budgeting, then budget for an amount you can lose easily enough so it won't eat at you. In my case, I started by giving myself a BR of $150. This was a one-time amount that I was never going to add to, but if you prefer, you can budget $X per week, $Y per month or some combo like $A to begin plus $B per week or month.

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I am really on a budget I'm on a PhD stipend, that stuff does not exactly leave piles of money to burn on Poker! Your point is well-taken though, I could easily afford to spend, say, $20 a month, and not have it impact my life at all. I guess my worry is unfounded, as I can stick to SNGs, and thereby avoid having big spikes like I could from cash tables.

Fknife said:

Alright then:

Matthew Janda - "Applications of No-Limit Holdem"
Will Tipton - "Expert Heads Up No Limit Holdem: Optimal and Exploitative Strategies"
Will Tipton - "Expert Heads Up No Limit Holdem: Strategies for Multiple Streets"
Thomas Bakker - "Analytical No-Limit Holdem: Crushing mid-stakes short handed games" (not that "mathematical" but presents a range oriented thinking)
Bill Chen - "The Mathematics of Poker" (if you feel the need )

On top of that, there are some coaching sites that offer various theory based series (I think Cardrunners is probably the most math/theory packed; DeucesCracked also has some good content). Beside trackers, they also use additional (paid) software such as CardrunnersEV, Flopzilla, ProPokerTools to build strategies, construct ranges etc.

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Awesome, thanks! In addition to the MIT videos that I'm watching, I also just ordered Bill Chen's book, which sounds very interesting.

I am curious, do you have an opinion on "Kill Everyone: etc" by Nelson, Streib, and Heston? It sounds interesting, but this line on the Amazon description:

groundbreaking analysis of fear-and-fold equity and equilibrium, plus the presentation of optimal strategies for the bubble, the end-game, and heads-up play

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makes me a little suspicious. For everything but heads-up play, it's entirely unclear what optimal play even means from a mathematical perspective.

basse said:

Awesome, thanks! In addition to the MIT videos that I'm watching, I also just ordered Bill Chen's book, which sounds very interesting.

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Yea, I've watched few of those some time ago. If I remember correctly, Mr. Chen actually has one lecture (or maybe even two) in which he presents AKQ game...

basse said:

I am curious, do you have an opinion on "Kill Everyone: etc" by Nelson, Streib, and Heston? It sounds interesting, but this line on the Amazon description:

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I heard about that book and its actually being mentioned quite often in Tournament Poker section but I've never read it (not really into tournaments etc).

Oh and you can also check out "Easy Game: 3rd Edition" by Andrew Seidman. Not much of a math book but it has everything I wish somebody told me when I first started playing. It doesnt present any specific strategy, hand charts or other bs but instead it teaches how to think about poker, starting from a simple question: "why?". You might like it

Since you are on a severe budget restriction, I offer this challenge, which is free.

Make 1 million play chips playing play money poker on pokerstars. I can guarantee that by the time you make those 1 million play chips, you will have been exposed to everything you will need to learn in poker with one VERY IMPORTANT exception. That exception is how to deal with the self-imposed 'scared money' aspect of the game.

It will not be as easy as it sounds like it might be. And no cheating by buying the play chips.

There will be some (perhaps many) who will scream at you for trying to accomplish anything via play money poker. They will seldom say this but (IMHO) their attitude goes something like 'I had to pay my dues with real money, and you have to too.' Thing is, you need to keep the cost of knowledge at the barest of minimums, so just think that they were all wealthy enough to afford that expensive education they got.

dj11 said:

Since you are on a severe budget restriction, I offer this challenge, which is free.

Make 1 million play chips playing play money poker on PokerStars. I can guarantee that by the time you make those 1 million play chips, you will have been exposed to everything you will need to learn in poker with one VERY IMPORTANT exception. That exception is how to deal with the self-imposed 'scared money' aspect of the game.

It will not be as easy as it sounds like it might be. And no cheating by buying the play chips.

There will be some (perhaps many) who will scream at you for trying to accomplish anything via play money poker. They will seldom say this but (IMHO) their attitude goes something like 'I had to pay my dues with real money, and you have to too.' Thing is, you need to keep the cost of knowledge at the barest of minimums, so just think that they were all wealthy enough to afford that expensive education they got.

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Is there any benefit to this over doing freerolls though? I would think that the freerolls have at least slightly more serious play, just because there's some probability of winning money. I guess the play money tables would be better for learning cash play, but I think I'm going to focus on tournaments at first.

By scared money, you just mean that people will play more defensively/cautiously with real money? Or do you mean learning to handle my own "scared money" thoughts?

basse said:

Is there any benefit to this over doing freerolls though? I would think that the freerolls have at least slightly more serious play, just because there's some probability of winning money. I guess the play money tables would be better for learning cash play, but I think I'm going to focus on tournaments at first.

By scared money, you just mean that people will play more defensively/cautiously with real money? Or do you mean learning to handle my own "scared money" thoughts?

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If you can find enough freerolls, by all means use them, but waiting around these days for the next available freeroll is much different than it used to be. So the play money games, both ring and tourneys, will fill in those meantime's.

Learning how 'scared money' affects you is important, and learning how it looks like it is affecting others is also important. It is a bigger influence than you imagine. In general, yes, it tends to make people more passive/cautious rather than defensive.

All poker input, books, articles, vids, discussions will help but the only way to develop a gut feel for the game is by playing hands. Tons and tons of hands.

BTW, unless it has changed, there is no great reason to buy the full blown version of either PT4 or HEM. The ~ $50 version will cover ring games up to $50 nl, which is a very advanced game. Not sure if either has a limit on Tourney Buy-ins.

Remember that I offer this advice this way because you sort of stressed the low budget part in your first posts. If you had a bigger monthly allowance I might offer different advice. There are many many members here who have built a fun useable bankroll from nothing or near nothing using something similar to the above 1 mil challenge and freerolls. Most of us did it when there were many more freerolls than there seem to be today, but it is still doable.

dj11 said:

If you can find enough freerolls, by all means use them, but waiting around these days for the next available freeroll is much different than it used to be. So the play money games, both ring and tourneys, will fill in those meantime's.

Learning how 'scared money' affects you is important, and learning how it looks like it is affecting others is also important. It is a bigger influence than you imagine. In general, yes, it tends to make people more passive/cautious rather than defensive.

All poker input, books, articles, vids, discussions will help but the only way to develop a gut feel for the game is by playing hands. Tons and tons of hands.

BTW, unless it has changed, there is no great reason to buy the full blown version of either PT4 or HEM. The ~ $50 version will cover ring games up to $50 nl, which is a very advanced game. Not sure if either has a limit on Tourney Buy-ins.

Remember that I offer this advice this way because you sort of stressed the low budget part in your first posts. If you had a bigger monthly allowance I might offer different advice. There are many many members here who have built a fun useable bankroll from nothing or near nothing using something similar to the above 1 mil challenge and freerolls. Most of us did it when there were many more freerolls than there seem to be today, but it is still doable.

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It seems that BetOnline has a good amount of freerolls. I just made an account through a link over in the freerolls section. There seems to be one every hour or so.

As for PT4 and HEM, it looks to me like they only support up to $0.50 nl, not $50. But they do support up to $22 tournaments/SNGs.

I will try the freerolls for a while, and if I find that lacking I might go for the play money challenge I do think you're right that putting in a lot of hands is essential, so I don't know if waiting around for a freeroll will be sufficient.

basse said:

It seems that BetOnline has a good amount of freerolls. I just made an account through a link over in the freerolls section. There seems to be one every hour or so.

As for PT4 and HEM, it looks to me like they only support up to $0.50 nl, not $50. But they do support up to $22 tournaments/SNGs.

I will try the freerolls for a while, and if I find that lacking I might go for the play money challenge I do think you're right that putting in a lot of hands is essential, so I don't know if waiting around for a freeroll will be sufficient.

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.25/.50 is $50 NL. I have the full version, so I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

basse said:

It seems that BetOnline has a good amount of freerolls. I just made an account through a link over in the freerolls section. There seems to be one every hour or so.

As for PT4 and HEM, it looks to me like they only support up to $0.50 nl, not $50. But they do support up to $22 tournaments/SNGs.

I will try the freerolls for a while, and if I find that lacking I might go for the play money challenge I do think you're right that putting in a lot of hands is essential, so I don't know if waiting around for a freeroll will be sufficient.

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I've heard some bad reviews on BetOnline. Mainly on withdrawing money from the site.
Do research on the site you want to play on regularly.

I started out learning how to play through the facebook App zynga 3 years ago, however it is much different playing play money than playing with real money.
Real money poker is much tougher than play money.
I don't want to discourage you from playing real money poker, so I recommend looking at youtube video play. I find that visual learning is just as effective as reading a book.

Look up Jason sommerville on youtube . Real sound advice from a real pro.

Good luck!

Mordecoke said:

I've heard some bad reviews on BetOnline. Mainly on withdrawing money from the site.
Do research on the site you want to play on regularly.

I started out learning how to play through the facebook app zynga 3 years ago, however it is much different playing play money than playing with real money.
Real money poker is much tougher than play money.
I don't want to discourage you from playing real money poker, so I recommend looking at youtube video play. I find that visual learning is just as effective as reading a book.

Look up Jason sommerville on youtube . Real sound advice from a real pro.

Good luck!

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Yeah, I've seen some of those as well. However, as long as I don't deposit my own money and only play their freerolls, I think the risk is low enough that I'm fine with it. It also seems that cardschat is starting up private freerolls with them, and I'd definitely like to play in those. If I ever choose to deposit money anywhere, it'd probably be Carbon, not BetOnline, though.

Thanks for the tip on the videos, I'll check that out!

dj11 said:

Since you are on a severe budget restriction, I offer this challenge, which is free.

Make 1 million play chips playing play money poker on PokerStars. I can guarantee that by the time you make those 1 million play chips, you will have been exposed to everything you will need to learn in poker with one VERY IMPORTANT exception. That exception is how to deal with the self-imposed 'scared money' aspect of the game.

Click to expand...

I wish I would have went with this challenge before I blew my initial $75 or so a long time ago. After losing I started to get more serious about playing, but couldn't/didn't want to deposit again. I played play chips at FT reading about STTs and ran up like 50m. After that I moved to full ring and ended up with almost 500m. All the while playing as many freerolls as possible.

Play money tables at 50mNL and up play a lot like $2NL. Obv people aren't risking 'real money' so it's not quite the same, but you run into a lot of the same player types. I'm not sure if PT or HEM support play money (they did 7-8 years ago I think lol), but that would be a good time to learn how to use the stats to assign player types, and how to exploit their weaknesses.

Through private freerolls (500k play chip freerolls for $ ftw) I got a few buy ins at 2NL and grinded that until I was rolled. From there I kept reading/watching poker material and used BRM to make my way to a comfortable roll at $25NL. I also table selected like a siv, but that was before Black Friday when there was such a thing for us US players. Not so much nowadays.

I repeated the process on Merge (minus the play monies) and have been taking some shots at $25NL there. So if you are relatively new to poker and don't have a roll, this is a pretty good challenge. I would try it while playing as many freerolls as I could. There are sites out there like CC that have private freerolls and the return on time investment is usually a lot better than scheduled freerolls.

Mathematics of Poker already mentioned and
The Math of Hold'em by Collin Moshman [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Collin-Moshman/e/B0036UGLFO/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1412286751&sr=8-1"][/ame]

J_Slice said:

I wish I would have went with this challenge before I blew my initial $75 or so a long time ago. After losing I started to get more serious about playing, but couldn't/didn't want to deposit again. I played play chips at FT reading about STTs and ran up like 50m. After that I moved to full ring and ended up with almost 500m. All the while playing as many freerolls as possible.

Play money tables at 50mNL and up play a lot like $2NL. Obv people aren't risking 'real money' so it's not quite the same, but you run into a lot of the same player types. I'm not sure if PT or HEM support play money (they did 7-8 years ago I think lol), but that would be a good time to learn how to use the stats to assign player types, and how to exploit their weaknesses.

Through private freerolls (500k play chip freerolls for $ ftw) I got a few buy ins at 2NL and grinded that until I was rolled. From there I kept reading/watching poker material and used BRM to make my way to a comfortable roll at $25NL. I also table selected like a siv, but that was before Black Friday when there was such a thing for us US players. Not so much nowadays.

I repeated the process on Merge (minus the play monies) and have been taking some shots at $25NL there. So if you are relatively new to poker and don't have a roll, this is a pretty good challenge. I would try it while playing as many freerolls as I could. There are sites out there like CC that have private freerolls and the return on time investment is usually a lot better than scheduled freerolls.

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Alright, I succumbed to the pressure and made a PokerStars account now, time to try out this challenge! I am on the fence about whether I should use PT and/or HEM straight away. It feels somewhat silly to be paying money for software so that I can use it for play money (I'm assuming it'll take me more than a month to move up). On the other hand, if I'm buying it eventually, I might as well buy it now, I suppose.

i think a standard full ring 9 or 10 man sng is the best place to start, think you should focus on icm at first

then once you get a good feel, the other formats should be easier to pick up

basse said:

Alright, I succumbed to the pressure and made a PokerStars account now, time to try out this challenge! I am on the fence about whether I should use PT and/or HEM straight away. It feels somewhat silly to be paying money for software so that I can use it for play money (I'm assuming it'll take me more than a month to move up). On the other hand, if I'm buying it eventually, I might as well buy it now, I suppose.

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Make sure you save your hand histories, You would do that via the client software (Stars, Merge, w/e). Save them for the longest possible time. If you get PT/HEM, they will find those HH (hand histories) later. And for a while you do not have to have a tracker. Instead, start taking notes vi a those client softwares. Nothing fancy is needed. No special note taking code is needed. Start with the date you first saw each player. Cut and paste can make that easy. Add what the game was. ex ; 10-3-14 PM 200NL FR ---which translates easily to; date, play money 200 chip buy-in, full ring (9-10 seat).

basse said:

Alright, I succumbed to the pressure and made a PokerStars account now, time to try out this challenge! I am on the fence about whether I should use PT and/or HEM straight away. It feels somewhat silly to be paying money for software so that I can use it for play money (I'm assuming it'll take me more than a month to move up). On the other hand, if I'm buying it eventually, I might as well buy it now, I suppose.

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Whether you should get PT or HEM straight away depends mostly on if you can afford it. I can say that PT was well worth the $50 or so I paid for the micro stakes version. I purchased PT3 years ago and still currently use it. Until the poker client has an update and I can't use 3 anymore I'll keep using it. At that point I will almost certainly be purchasing one of the newer programs. I believe both have free trials I would highly suggesting making use of before making any purchases.

For play money I would say it's not necessary. Like was already said, playing very few tables and taking solid notes will put you ahead of half the field imo. Having a system for keeping them short and sweet helps a lot. Classifying opponents into general player types without a HUD and deciding on the best way to exploit that style is an essential skill.

I would say wait until you have money on a site, or have decided to deposit, before buying either tracker, unless the price is insignificant to your life roll. I purchased it and am pretty sure I used it for play money/free rolls, but the price didn't mean much. Depositing was always an option to me as well so I fully expected to use it for real money. That was pre Black Friday when depositing/withdrawing in the US was easier.