Forced to go all in when running out of chips

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RickAversion

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What are the general rules of thumb?

Let's say blinds are $5/$10 and you have $50 in chips left.
You will survive 3 more rounds of small and big blind. ($15x3=$45)
That means you have 30 more hands left in a table of 10 players.
(Assuming the blinds are fixed for now)

So, there really is no urgency in pushing all in, right?

It's more clear when you are on your last round and the next set of blinds will bankrupt you, so then it's more clear to just go all in with a J8 or whatever, since odds are, you won't get such a high card in the next few hands.

But, when you have a few rounds left, don't panic, right?
 
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pokerjack43

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a bet of 5 big blinds will carry no weight. You're more likely to get multiple callers, which is good and bad, you cant play right though. You'll be struggling to win with 5bb. I would advise buying more chips.
Its not about surviving till you run out, its about making what you have bigger.

If you're going to 'give it away' to the blinds anyway you might as well just put it all in when you have an opportunity to win a decent pot.

rule of thumb is never get that short, always buy in and keep topping up to have a big stack. If you have no choice then start pushing your chips around when they still have weight, 10bb or more. Or cut your losses now and cash out the $50.
with blinds of $5/$10 you would want to buy in for $1000 at least.

many reasons for keeping a big stack, the main being if you get a good chance to make money, you get the maximum amount of money.

I assume you're talking cash games/if not then in a tournament start shoving on almost any 2 cards at around 15 big blinds.
 
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a bet of 5 big blinds will carry no weight. You're more likely to get multiple callers, which is good and bad, you cant play right though. You'll be struggling to win with 5bb. I would advise buying more chips.
Its not about surviving till you run out, its about making what you have bigger.

If you're going to 'give it away' to the blinds anyway you might as well just put it all in when you have an opportunity to win a decent pot.

rule of thumb is never get that short, always buy in and keep topping up to have a big stack. If you have no choice then start pushing your chips around when they still have weight, 10bb or more. Or cut your losses now and cash out the $50.
with blinds of $5/$10 you would want to buy in for $1000 at least.

many reasons for keeping a big stack, the main being if you get a good chance to make money, you get the maximum amount of money.

I assume you're talking cash games/if not then in a tournament start shoving on almost any 2 cards at around 15 big blinds.

^^This +1 - but should it be more around 10BB for any two cards in tournament?
 
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Flsnookman

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Again, I am no pro but if it's a tourny I think you should really consider opening up your range at 20 BBs. I don't mean shoving atc but any suited ace, suited connecters, any pair, because imho you lose a lot of playing ability with less than 20 BBs. Again, I am also learning this game but I believe if I am putting a third of my stack in the middle I am not folding anyway and if I am not folding I may as well shove. With less than 20 BBs any raise will almost be a third of my stack so....I hope this isn't bad advice. Good luck.
 
aa88wildbill

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If you talk about tournaments, you have until blinds make it around to you. Find a hand push it all in hope for best. And if you're talking about a cash table, just buy more chips.
 
snklzona

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I have always thought it was around 10BBs but lately I have heard it said that 20BBs is now considered the new short point...
 
steveiam

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People are shoving now with all sorts of hands all you can do is pick your moment and hope.
 
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RickAversion

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Can someone clarify 20BB's? At a table of 10, if you can afford 20BB's, that means 200 hands.
Isn't that a bit early to panic? That seems excessive.
I start going all in once I can only afford like 2 more BB's. (ie: 20 more hands)
 
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onemorechance

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Yeah you need to be shoving wayyyyyyyyyyy earlier. That link scourrge posted is a good starting point

But in an mtt, you should really try to not get below 10bb
 
steveiam

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Can someone clarify 20BB's? At a table of 10, if you can afford 20BB's, that means 200 hands.
Isn't that a bit early to panic? That seems excessive.
I start going all in once I can only afford like 2 more BB's. (ie: 20 more hands)

You need to be shoving when you have around 10bbs..otherwise you will be pricing people in to call you. For example if the bb is 100 and you have 1000 chips thats when to shove..
 
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RickAversion

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You need to be shoving when you have around 10bbs..otherwise you will be pricing people in to call you. For example if the bb is 100 and you have 1000 chips thats when to shove..

I still don't get it. If BB is 100, and I have 1000 chips, and there are 10 players, I can play for HOURS longer. Why would you panic when you have 100 more hands coming your way. (Well, if you count small blind of 50, that's $150 per cycle, so that means 7 more cycles or 70 more hands) Are you saying to start shoving in this early, since it's not really 70 more hands b/c the blinds are going to increase? Even still, you still have 30-40 hands left, so I'm not shoving in with a Jack high just yet.
 
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onemorechance

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I still don't get it. If BB is 100, and I have 1000 chips, and there are 10 players, I can play for HOURS longer. Why would you panic when you have 100 more hands coming your way. (Well, if you count small blind of 50, that's $150 per cycle, so that means 7 more cycles or 70 more hands) Are you saying to start shoving in this early, since it's not really 70 more hands b/c the blinds are going to increase? Even still, you still have 30-40 hands left, so I'm not shoving in with a Jack high just yet.

Yeah you need to be shoving wayyyyyyyyyyy earlier. That link scourrge posted is a good starting point


..
 
Poker Orifice

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I have always thought it was around 10BBs but lately I have heard it said that 20BBs is now considered the new short point...
Depends upon structure/ effective stacks
 
dirtyoldog

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ya i think thats way early if no one calls big deal ya score the blinds if someone calls your probably done. if ya sick of playing shove cuz 2 calls and your walkin
 
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onemorechance

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kidkvno1

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I still don't get it. If BB is 100, and I have 1000 chips, and there are 10 players, I can play for HOURS longer. Why would you panic when you have 100 more hands coming your way. (Well, if you count small blind of 50, that's $150 per cycle, so that means 7 more cycles or 70 more hands) Are you saying to start shoving in this early, since it's not really 70 more hands b/c the blinds are going to increase? Even still, you still have 30-40 hands left, so I'm not shoving in with a Jack high just yet.
The problem is the blinds move up every 10 to 20 mins in MTT play, you don't have hours of play left, and before you know it you're really short stacked!!
Cash blind's stay the same so we do have hours of play left!
But you also need to think about the number of players at the table.
Are we talking Cash games or MTT's???
 
Debi

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She has to be talking tournies - blinds don't go up on cash tables. No way in hell do you have hours of play left with 10 bb's.
 
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ibsiegel

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Can someone clarify 20BB's? At a table of 10, if you can afford 20BB's, that means 200 hands.
Isn't that a bit early to panic? That seems excessive.
I start going all in once I can only afford like 2 more BB's. (ie: 20 more hands)

they are talking about being able to see the flop with out a preflop raise 10 or 20 times. Meaning you have at least 10 or 20BB to see that many flops. Not to see cards. Your not going to win every flop so with 3BB you have 3 chances to win and no betting power.
 
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OzExorcist

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Conventional wisdom is that if you're down to 10BB or less then you're most definitely into push-fold mode, with the emphasis on finding something to push as soon as possible.

An even better strategy though is to adjust your play earlier in the tournament and do your best to avoid ever getting that short in the first place. In some games (turbo STTs, for example) it's basically unaviodable, but you want to be thinking about accumulating chips much earlier, not just hanging on because "you've got time".
 
coyotegal

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What are the general rules of thumb?

Let's say blinds are $5/$10 and you have $50 in chips left.
You will survive 3 more rounds of small and big blind. ($15x3=$45)
That means you have 30 more hands left in a table of 10 players.
(Assuming the blinds are fixed for now)

So, there really is no urgency in pushing all in, right?

It's more clear when you are on your last round and the next set of blinds will bankrupt you, so then it's more clear to just go all in with a J8 or whatever, since odds are, you won't get such a high card in the next few hands.

But, when you have a few rounds left, don't panic, right?

Sounds like shes talking cash tables to me....
 
Matt Vaughan

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No. The question is about tournaments ainec. No one, and I mean no one, talks about "survival" in a cash game. "You will survive 3 more rounds."

Carry on...
 
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DrSparky

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I still don't get it. If BB is 100, and I have 1000 chips, and there are 10 players, I can play for HOURS longer. Why would you panic when you have 100 more hands coming your way. (Well, if you count small blind of 50, that's $150 per cycle, so that means 7 more cycles or 70 more hands) Are you saying to start shoving in this early, since it's not really 70 more hands b/c the blinds are going to increase? Even still, you still have 30-40 hands left, so I'm not shoving in with a Jack high just yet.

The problem is the blinds move up every 10 to 20 mins in MTT play, you don't have hours of play left, and before you know it you're really short stacked!!
Cash blind's stay the same so we do have hours of play left!
But you also need to think about the number of players at the table.
Are we talking Cash games or MTT's???

Assuming this is all about tournaments the other thing that you need to take into account is that if you're shoving a 10BB stack ($1000 if BB=$100) someone has to think if they're willing to risk a call of potentially 50-33% of their stack. If you wait and your down to around 3-5BB for example ($300-$500 if BB=$100), this is much more around someones pre-flop raising range and you'll not only get people calling you easier, you'll get more people calling you. Since you're chances of winning decrease with the more players that enter the pot - better to shove with 10BB and try and get heads up in my opinion...
 
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Flsnookman

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The reason I don't like to get below 20 BBs is that in general if I am putting a third of my stack in the middle I'm not folding. I usually raise 2.5 BBs. If I only have 10 BBs left thats a third of my stack. I am now commited. If I stay at more than 20 BBs I can reraise and still fold. Also, It's much harder for someone with say 80 BBs to call a 20BB shove than a 10BB shove. Again, I am learning this game so don't put too much stock in what I say. Good luck.
 
JusSumguy

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No. The question is about tournaments ainec. No one, and I mean no one, talks about "survival" in a cash game. "You will survive 3 more rounds."

Carry on...

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