Folding SB to limpers...why?

#1 January 27th, 2020, 11:23 PM

Just trying to fine tune many parts of my tournament strategies.

One hiccup I think I have is refusing to fold my SB when there isn't a raise. I always feel that the pot odds are there to just see the flop and try to hit big, even if my hand is trash. This is especially true for me in early stages. Later stages, Im still very stubborn, but I may fold depending on my stack

Don't pot odds always dictate putting in the chips to complete the BB at such a cheap price? I see soooooo many players folding their small blinds (even with limpers, where the pots odds are even greater), am I missing something?

#2 January 28th, 2020, 7:07 AM

most of the time players fold in this position because the majoriy of time are weak hands, and is hard to extract value even if you hit a nice flop, only if you like slow play, of course
and I see a lot of reg players limping strong/playable hands, this paradigm, limp = weak hand, in my opinion is false

#3 January 28th, 2020, 7:21 AM

There is trash, and then there is real trash your 72o only has a 1/3 chance of beating 69o. The fact that there are other limpers makes it even harder to win. Real trash you should just dump.

But what about suited Th2h or connected 7d8h - might be worth limping - maybe high gappers as well 8T.

Problems of course are ::
BB raising
Someone is slowplaying - flop come 734 and run into pocket 88
If you do get trips 77T - which has pretty low odd - you still need others to pay you, always hard when there is a pair on the board.

So I open up my range, but still chuck the real junk.

I am of course a total newbie - seems for many limping in is a huge NO NO

#4 January 28th, 2020, 8:17 AM

my opinion must take into account the equity of the hand anyway, and if there is any story on the opponent pushing off from it, the Blaine war is a whole story!

#5 January 28th, 2020, 9:27 AM

Pot odds aren't everything in poker, for example:
Reverse implied odds (you have top pair bad kicker and lose chips to top pair good kicker)
If the players limping are good you will have less opportunities to exploit them postflop.

Those are some examples of when you can fold your weaker hands but that doesn't mean you always should.
There is also the option of raising so you get the initiative and hopefully win the pot preflop or with a c-bet.

#6 January 28th, 2020, 10:31 AM

The SB is the worst position. Either raise the limpers, they usually raise because they are weak and you may force them to fold, or fold your SB hand.

#7 January 28th, 2020, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by kalelisback

Just trying to fine tune many parts of my tournament strategies.

One hiccup I think I have is refusing to fold my SB when there isn't a raise. I always feel that the pot odds are there to just see the flop and try to hit big, even if my hand is trash. This is especially true for me in early stages. Later stages, Im still very stubborn, but I may fold depending on my stack

Don't pot odds always dictate putting in the chips to complete the BB at such a cheap price? I see soooooo many players folding their small blinds (even with limpers, where the pots odds are even greater), am I missing something?

Hi. Good question. Here are some important points for playing in the small blind.

1) You are out of position in the small blind. So vs limpers most of your hands should be played as iso-raises and you should also have a very tight range to make up for your positional disadvantage. If the limpers are sticky stations just don't bother unless you have monsters and there is a big enough raise you can use for them to fold to. You can't iso raise if the table gives you no fold equity.

2) you can have a small overlimping range (small pocket pairs), but ONLY if the shortest stack at the table is at least 15x bigger than the amount you need to call. Your goal here is to flop a set while getting somebody to bet or call with worse such as a good pair (if you don't flop a sets just give up)
2.5) exception to giving up on the flop is if someone minraises multiway on a dry flop, then you may just still have good implied odds to set mine the turn and give up on a later street if you don't hit a set. Don't do this on a wet flop because draws may complete for others.

3) You may be tempted to overlimp or call suited connectors. Don't over-limp middle and small suited connectors from the SB. Even if you hit a flush draw your opponents will make life difficult for you because they have position on you. Exception is you can consider doing this vs. very weak players who check a lot or minraise on the flop. But if your suited connectors are very low I wouldn't bother.

4) In general overlimping is unprofitable in heads up pots. It may be profitable multiway, but mostly for set mining and not connectors (because there are more opponents who may connect with a high card on the board while your set is disguised). Your goal with set mining is to win at least 9x what you invest each time you call with a small pocket pair. Otherwise you will bleed chips in the long run.

5) In small blind vs. open-raisers, you should adopt a 3-bet or fold strategy for a large percentage of your range (which should be extremely tight because you are out of position), and maybe call only the minor bottom percent of that range.

6) In tournaments overcalling like this will cause you to bleed your stack, so even with small pocket pairs I wouldn't do it if you're under 40bb deep (or if anyone else at the table has a similarly short stack). And it will be very hard to cbet a missed flop out of position if you did raise pre from SB.

Let me know if you want anything elaborated on or clarified Folding SB to limpers...why?

#8 January 28th, 2020, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by ventrolloquist

Hi. Good question. Here are some important points for playing in the small blind.

1) You are out of position in the small blind. So vs limpers most of your hands should be played as iso-raises and you should also have a very tight range to make up for your positional disadvantage. If the limpers are sticky stations just don't bother unless you have monsters and there is a big enough raise you can use for them to fold to. You can't iso raise if the table gives you no fold equity.

2) you can have a small overlimping range (small pocket pairs), but ONLY if the shortest stack at the table is at least 15x bigger than the amount you need to call. Your goal here is to flop a set while getting somebody to bet or call with worse such as a good pair (if you don't flop a sets just give up)
2.5) exception to giving up on the flop is if someone minraises multiway on a dry flop, then you may just still have good implied odds to set mine the turn and give up on a later street if you don't hit a set. Don't do this on a wet flop because draws may complete for others.

3) You may be tempted to overlimp or call suited connectors. Don't over-limp middle and small suited connectors from the SB. Even if you hit a flush draw your opponents will make life difficult for you because they have position on you. Exception is you can consider doing this vs. very weak players who check a lot or minraise on the flop. But if your suited connectors are very low I wouldn't bother.

4) In general overlimping is unprofitable in heads up pots. It may be profitable multiway, but mostly for set mining and not connectors (because there are more opponents who may connect with a high card on the board while your set is disguised). Your goal with set mining is to win at least 9x what you invest each time you call with a small pocket pair. Otherwise you will bleed chips in the long run.

5) In small blind vs. open-raisers, you should adopt a 3-bet or fold strategy for a large percentage of your range (which should be extremely tight because you are out of position), and maybe call only the minor bottom percent of that range.

6) In tournaments overcalling like this will cause you to bleed your stack, so even with small pocket pairs I wouldn't do it if you're under 40bb deep (or if anyone else at the table has a similarly short stack). And it will be very hard to cbet a missed flop out of position if you did raise pre from SB.

Let me know if you want anything elaborated on or clarified Folding SB to limpers...why?

Excellent Excellent analysis. I'm saving this post to my notes to really internalize it.

Overcalling has definitely led to overall chip deterioration in many of my tournaments. And you are spot on here that even with a small pair, playing out of position, its a very tough spot to cbet a a missed flop (even on a dry board) in this position. Cbetting in these situations has always been disastrous for me.

Thanks for great insight, appreciate it

#9 January 28th, 2020, 9:54 PM

Originally Posted by kalelisback

Just trying to fine tune many parts of my tournament strategies.

One hiccup I think I have is refusing to fold my SB when there isn't a raise. I always feel that the pot odds are there to just see the flop and try to hit big, even if my hand is trash. This is especially true for me in early stages. Later stages, Im still very stubborn, but I may fold depending on my stack

Don't pot odds always dictate putting in the chips to complete the BB at such a cheap price? I see soooooo many players folding their small blinds (even with limpers, where the pots odds are even greater), am I missing something?

You are absolutely correct about getting good pot odds. And, once in a while you will flop 2 pair or a straight or a small flush.

BUT, you are still playing out of position.

And, how excited will I be w K3o and it is a K-high flop with 5 other players in the hand?

And, when I smash the flop w 82 and the flop is 822 - who is going to pay me? The player who limped w 55 ?

So my attitude is that I will not play the SB in a limp pot (especially in a tournament) unless I will raise with that hand preflop. And then I am continue betting on the flop....which is dangerous OOP.

So usually I elect to save my 1/2 BB and use it for raising with a good hand or good position.

Great question.

Good luck !

#10 January 28th, 2020, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by kalelisback

Excellent Excellent analysis. I'm saving this post to my notes to really internalize it.

Overcalling has definitely led to overall chip deterioration in many of my tournaments. And you are spot on here that even with a small pair, playing out of position, its a very tough spot to cbet a a missed flop (even on a dry board) in this position. Cbetting in these situations has always been disastrous for me.

Thanks for great insight, appreciate it

Thanks happy to help Folding SB to limpers...why?

I wanted to post a disclaimer that this is just my approach because I find myself in many tough spots vs. unknown opponents limping speculative stuff in the SB and it just becomes a game of trying to hit set or 2 pair on the flop or being afraid someone has a stronger flush draw than me.

There is an upswing article that advocates a very loose approach including overlimping even stuff like T9o because of the great pot odds. I'm not sure if it's for cash game or tourney though but in a tournament I would much rather just wait for a better spot and not waste chips unless my stack is full. Perhaps my approach is wrong, but you'll have a lot less difficult decisions by just laying down the speculative hands imo.

These are the articles.

https://upswingpoker.com/limped-pots...-strategy/amp/

https://www.splitsuit.com/overlimping-how-to-limp-behind-preflop/amp

#11 January 28th, 2020, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by kalelisback

Just trying to fine tune many parts of my tournament strategies.

One hiccup I think I have is refusing to fold my SB when there isn't a raise. I always feel that the pot odds are there to just see the flop and try to hit big, even if my hand is trash. This is especially true for me in early stages. Later stages, Im still very stubborn, but I may fold depending on my stack

Don't pot odds always dictate putting in the chips to complete the BB at such a cheap price? I see soooooo many players folding their small blinds (even with limpers, where the pots odds are even greater), am I missing something?

Thank U 4 Posting.

Do you play well post flop?
Do you play well post flop vs multiple villains?
Do you play well post flop OOP? Vs multiple villains?
Are you able to play a good LAG style?

Rank yourself on a scale from 1-10 on the above.
Did you score well?
Or do we need more work before we take on one of the hardest situations in tournaments to be profitable in.

What does it mean to play well post flop OOP.

Do you know how to steal position in a hand through betting techniques?
Will your villains give up position based on your bets?
Are you aware of your player pools fold frequency post flop?
Is it closer to 20% with second pair or 40%?

Can you 3 barrel bluff?
Can you check raise bluff with nothing vs a weak player who will fold?
Can you read board texture well flop- turn -river?
Then use that board texture vs your villains?
Can you call flop -bluff lead turn for instance?
Do you ever use 1.5x or >pot bluff and value bets?
When might the above sizing be most effective?
When you are bluffing do you know what range you are targeting?

These are just some thoughts about playing OOP. You may already know much of this.

Hope this helps

Folding SB to limpers...why?

#12 January 29th, 2020, 12:24 AM

I think it depends on the player. Even the likes of Doyle Brunson experimented with playing almost every hand at times.
There are points where you might be more likely to play SB with a small number of limpers like the and push having missed the flop - for example if they give the impression they didn't have an Ace and one hits the flop you might be in a position to represent it. However, this is a very risky strategy.
In a tournament, you have to play the players at your table and the point in the game you're at. You can find that there are points (like just outside the money) where many players get shy of any real action and are easier to push off pots. Equally, at the start when there are rebuys it may be impossible as you'll get 'players' who may stay in with very little and if you missed that's still probably enough.

So it depends on the table and the players whether it's worth generally playing a hand. If you take that half bet to limp in as well you're either hoping to bluff or you're hoping to hit something strong (like trips or better) on the flop because in between you're liable to be in trouble and stuck with a poor kicker with a dominated hand.

#13 January 29th, 2020, 8:29 AM

Based on raw equity you might be priced in to complete with any hand from SB. However the problem is, you are not going to realise your equity very well. Sometimes BB will raise, and then you have to fold your trash hand without even seeing a flop. And even when that does not happen, you are out of position postflop against everyone, so often you will be outplayed, and its more difficult to get value.

Finally trash hands tend to have a lot of reverse implied odds, which mean, that when you improve, its often to something second best. Say you complete with 82 offsuit, and flop comes 863 two spades. You flopped top pair, which sounds great. But if this pot gets big, how often do you really think, that you will have the best hand at showdown?

Most of the time your opponent will have gotten there in some way with a flush, a straight, two pair or even just a better pair than yours, if for instance they have QJ or spades, and a Q hit the turn. Or you are behind already even just to someone with a better kicker like 98 of clubs.

Tammy · #14 January 29th, 2020, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by kalelisback

Just trying to fine tune many parts of my tournament strategies.

One hiccup I think I have is refusing to fold my SB when there isn't a raise. I always feel that the pot odds are there to just see the flop and try to hit big, even if my hand is trash. This is especially true for me in early stages. Later stages, Im still very stubborn, but I may fold depending on my stack

Don't pot odds always dictate putting in the chips to complete the BB at such a cheap price? I see soooooo many players folding their small blinds (even with limpers, where the pots odds are even greater), am I missing something?

1.) You're OOP the entire hand.

2.) The BB can (and fairly often will) squeeze.

3.) Mediocre/weak starting hands flop mediocre/weak made hands.

4.) Sometimes players limp either as a slowplay or to induce with premium/monsters.

5.) Limping is bad, mmmmkay?

The above is with MTT in mind.

I'm sure there are plenty more reasons why you should raise or fold here instead, but these are the immediate reasons that come to mind for me.

#15 January 29th, 2020, 1:56 PM

in a way you are already involved in the hand and from a point of view that facilitates the payment of the blind you will pay cheaper, but your game strategy has to speak louder than your cards poker is a sport of the mind because The strategy you draw is independent of your cards, for example, when you have a solid image you can play a 72o as a pair of AA and win chips with it. so a maxim should be imposed when you reason about it, your strategy must override your attachment to the cards you received. GL

#16 January 29th, 2020, 7:34 PM

There are odds but don`t forget BB will raise sometimes (in my field 14%). Also pot is 3 way and you out of position. If you hold X2o or X3o and hit two pair but board pairs in later streets your two pairs goes out of window vs TP. So you will make more mistakes if you don`t read hands well.

In the end the isolation range will be very similar to range that you can call.

#17 January 29th, 2020, 7:44 PM

i think there are times when i fold ,but for the most part i want to see the flop, i also will begin to represent and no matter what i hold, i will use aggression and feel it out from there i suppose always calling and hoping for a pair is there, but there is more value in opponents lack of a hand that i will use.

#18 February 1st, 2020, 1:06 AM

if is blind vs blind you should see flop as much as possible in this situation

if is over 2 people in pot you and big blind left in and late where blinds actually matter is easy to fold 85 72 24 hands etc.... if suited might take a chance but a lot of times bb is coming out with a raise.....

my thing is your out of position so honestly if going to play pot your better off doubling the big blind see if get at least that player out of the pot.....

#19 February 1st, 2020, 1:19 AM

I fold the sb and bb a lot in tournament play. When I do lose in a tournament its playing bad cards from the sb and bb.. After im out I always tell myself I shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place. So stealing my blind is ok if I have horrible starting cards. NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY!

P.S. I win quite often!!

#20 February 1st, 2020, 2:02 AM

I really don't like playing out of the small blind because I end up using a check/call strategy which generally is a bad line. You hit a lot of hands that want to continue but cannot withstand serious pressure from the in-position player.

#21 February 1st, 2020, 2:10 AM

I limp in if there's at least 2 callers every time, especially early. My ROI on the 1/2 blind is huge over time. Almost always check flop regardless.

#22 February 1st, 2020, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by ventrolloquist

Hi. Good question. Here are some important points for playing in the small blind.

1) You are out of position in the small blind. So vs limpers most of your hands should be played as iso-raises and you should also have a very tight range to make up for your positional disadvantage. If the limpers are sticky stations just don't bother unless you have monsters and there is a big enough raise you can use for them to fold to. You can't iso raise if the table gives you no fold equity.

2) you can have a small overlimping range (small pocket pairs), but ONLY if the shortest stack at the table is at least 15x bigger than the amount you need to call. Your goal here is to flop a set while getting somebody to bet or call with worse such as a good pair (if you don't flop a sets just give up)
2.5) exception to giving up on the flop is if someone minraises multiway on a dry flop, then you may just still have good implied odds to set mine the turn and give up on a later street if you don't hit a set. Don't do this on a wet flop because draws may complete for others.

3) You may be tempted to overlimp or call suited connectors. Don't over-limp middle and small suited connectors from the SB. Even if you hit a flush draw your opponents will make life difficult for you because they have position on you. Exception is you can consider doing this vs. very weak players who check a lot or minraise on the flop. But if your suited connectors are very low I wouldn't bother.

4) In general overlimping is unprofitable in heads up pots. It may be profitable multiway, but mostly for set mining and not connectors (because there are more opponents who may connect with a high card on the board while your set is disguised). Your goal with set mining is to win at least 9x what you invest each time you call with a small pocket pair. Otherwise you will bleed chips in the long run.

5) In small blind vs. open-raisers, you should adopt a 3-bet or fold strategy for a large percentage of your range (which should be extremely tight because you are out of position), and maybe call only the minor bottom percent of that range.

6) In tournaments overcalling like this will cause you to bleed your stack, so even with small pocket pairs I wouldn't do it if you're under 40bb deep (or if anyone else at the table has a similarly short stack). And it will be very hard to cbet a missed flop out of position if you did raise pre from SB.

Let me know if you want anything elaborated on or clarified Folding SB to limpers...why?

Started immediately applying these concepts. I must say, I am staying away from a lot trouble. You happy now?! lol, j/k

Definitely raising out of the SB is better if you really want to see the flop. Otherwise, I'm starting to toss most of my hands away.

Thanks

#23 February 1st, 2020, 8:44 PM

Being on the SB means you have to act first once the flop and other cards appear. This is annoying and anyways not easy to win a hand like that. If you then have some really weak cards on the SB and a lot of people of limping, then fold your cards. The chance of hitting some good cards on the flop are not high and the limpers can easily hit something better. Even if you hit some good cards, you still have to play from first position.

#24 February 1st, 2020, 10:42 PM

Your decision call or fold depends much from your stack at the moment and stage of tournament. Notes of opps will help you also.

#25 February 1st, 2020, 10:45 PM

It depends on so many things. Stack size, other players actions and styles, other's chip stacks, and equity of hand pre. If you don't have a monster and are contemplating calling with garbage cards, just be ready to make tough decisions out of position. Even if you hit your hand, you could get outdrawn by something better a lot of the time.

#26 February 1st, 2020, 10:48 PM

Unless I am small stacked and waited for a prime hand. I will usually call the blind if I'm small blind. More often than not big blind is going to check unless they have a great hand

#27 February 2nd, 2020, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by kalelisback

Started immediately applying these concepts. I must say, I am staying away from a lot trouble. You happy now?! lol, j/k

Definitely raising out of the SB is better if you really want to see the flop. Otherwise, I'm starting to toss most of my hands away.

Thanks

Thanks bud

. I hope it helps your winrate. Tightening up in the SB has saved me from a lot headaches in tournaments.

Ps. I wanted to clarify that raising in SB is best done as a 3 bet vs an open. Isolating from small blind can actually still be very difficult and I lean towards avoiding it but that's just me. 3 betting or folding from small blind though has printed me a lot of coffee money at the micros Folding SB to limpers...why?

For cash games I would still try to learn to follow upswing pokers loose play advice to try and hit trips/2pair/set at passive tables. Just be careful with hands that realize their equity in steps when out of position and only overlimp these with a passive table.

#28 February 5th, 2020, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by ventrolloquist

Thanks bud

. I hope it helps your winrate. Tightening up in the SB has saved me from a lot headaches in tournaments.

Ps. I wanted to clarify that raising in SB is best done as a 3 bet vs an open. Isolating from small blind can actually still be very difficult and I lean towards avoiding it but that's just me. 3 betting or folding from small blind though has printed me a lot of coffee money at the micros Folding SB to limpers...why?

For cash games I would still try to learn to follow upswing pokers loose play advice to try and hit trips/2pair/set at passive tables. Just be careful with hands that realize their equity in steps when out of position and only overlimp these with a passive table.

What's your tournament approach when you see a raise and at least 1 opponents who call the raise and you're in the SB?

Is it the same approach as my initial issue (when only a limper enters)?

#29 February 5th, 2020, 2:33 PM

Originally Posted by kalelisback

What's your tournament approach when you see a raise and at least 1 opponents who call the raise and you're in the SB?

Is it the same approach as my initial issue (when only a limper enters)?

It depends on the table. If the raiser and caller are sticky and would call a 3bet which is frequently the case at freerolls and centrolls, I prefer to call (see more info below on what I'm calling with).

My personal approach, and I don't know if this is correct or not, is if the effective stack size at the table is at least 20x the raise, (or perhaps a bit less if it goes multiway), is to only call here with implied odds hands (and only if I have a deep stack and if I am sure BB is unlikely to squeeze!). My personal preference is small pairs only in this specific situation, I am looking to hit a set, and give up if I miss it. I tend to avoid suited connectors unless both the raiser and the caller are passive because connectors realize their equity in steps and an aggressive player can give you a difficult time even if you hit a draw on the flop because you are OOP. If it's very mulitiway (like 3 other players or more) and my stack is big, then I do sometimes call with connectors from SB assuming it's a fairly passive calling stationy table, because I know I can get a cheap turn card and win a huge pot when I hit my flush or straight. The last sentence usually applies in centrolls and freerolls because the players don't give you much credit and will give you their stacks away with nothing but top pair.

If the raising players open wide and fold to 3 bets a lot, I will squeeze with hands like higher pairs and suited boradways. However, not if I am facing a tight player's UTG or MP open (especially with a second caller in the pot, whose range is likely just as tight). 3 betting in this situation would be 3 betting with hands that probably have reverse implied odds; so I would tighten my 3 bet range up to the very strongest hands in this situation; like KK+. I would be scared about even playing QQ here with 2 other players in a pot given that they are playing EP ranges.

If it's only passive limpers in front with no open raises I will add suited aces into my calling range as you can flop a nut flush draw.

I think that's what I do for the most part, I tent to mix it up and sometimes do one thing or the other depending on how passive/aggressive or tight/loose a table is.

That's just my approach, but then I might not be doing it right. I'm not really a professional lol.

#30 February 9th, 2020, 8:21 AM

I dont usually protect my small blind against limpers. Especially if I only have 1500 chips to start the tournament. 2500 chips I may protect my SB by limping in. Starting stack of 10000 chips, yes I can afford to lose few chips defending my SB.

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